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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 8505789" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>First, apologies if I misunderstood. I had brain fog all day yesterday, fortunately I'm feeling much better today.</p><p></p><p>I still have some thoughts on this (surprise, surprise). I think every DM, every group should find their own groove. That's why, to me, it came across as "this is <em>the way</em> to play", whether or not that was the intent. I mean, I get it. We all find a style that works for us, it works better then other group's we've been in for us and we want to share. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that too often it veers into "Thou Shalt" when it was just something that we personally were excited to share. Because we want everyone to enjoy the hobby, right?</p><p></p><p>So a bit more detail:</p><p></p><p>Usually true, but oftentimes meaningful is only a word or two. "Which way did the thief run?" Depending on the situation, it could be "left", in other cases it could be a more flowery description that helps set the mood and scene including the thief sliding under some horses pulling a carriage spooking them, the carriage smashing <s>fruit stands </s>chicken coops at the side of the street, general mayhem in the streets. Is one "better" than the other? Depends on the scenario.</p><p></p><p>Of course at my table you may also get some dumb sarcastic comment. But if anyone throws dice at me I get to keep them, so it's meaningful <em>to me </em>because, hey, free dice!</p><p></p><p></p><p>First I disagree with the interpretation of meaningful consequences paragraph that people point to. Sometimes there's a meaningful <em>meta game</em> consequence of <em>not</em> calling for a roll. If a PC suspects an NPC is lying but doesn't get an insight check she'll know with absolute certainty that they are not lying. I think the text is misinterpreted. Even if it's not it's just one paragraph that IMHO is blown out of proportion.</p><p></p><p>[SPOILER="The text in question"]</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">When a player wants to do something, it’s often appropriate to let the attempt succeed without a roll or a reference to the character’s ability scores. <strong>For example, a character doesn’t normally need to make a Dexterity check to walk across an empty room or a Charisma check to order a mug of ale.</strong> Only call for a roll if there is a meaningful consequence for failure.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">When deciding whether to use a roll, ask yourself two questions:</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Is a task so easy and so free of conflict and stress that there should be no chance of failure?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Is a task so inappropriate or impossible — such as hitting the moon with an arrow — that it can’t work?</li> </ul><p>People tend to skim over (or omit) the bolded part. I think it's obviously talking about how you don't want to bog the game down with simple things, not an edict on how to handle a situation where the player could reasonably expect a check.</p><p>[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>Second, <em>does the narration add value to the game</em>. I had a fair amount of fluff and description to my combats, but there's a time and a place for it. Too much and it's just bogging down combat, too little and the combat may not be as engaging.</p><p></p><p>In a recent scenario the fighter was holding off an ogre and a warlord while everyone else was otherwise engaged. There was a decent amount of banter back and forth, with the Ogre being quite proud that he could count to 10 ("1, 2, more than 2, 10!") and the warlord offering the fighter a job because obviously he couldn't get good help while looking at the ogre. It was pretty touch and go for the fighter, I was rolling a lot of 20s. It was fun and engaging, but narrating every individual blow, or even most of them, would have been way too much.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is simply a matter of expediency. I'm okay with a player saying "Insight check?" because in context I know what they're attempting. In the rare cases I don't I clarify. There's also some things like history checks that it would just be weird for me to ask someone how they're trying to remember something. A player saying "History check on [the McGuffin]" is just reminding me they're trained in history. </p><p></p><p>I'm even okay with the player saying "15 insight check?" because, again, it's just speeding up the game so we can get to the important stuff. It also depends on the player, I have a player that just has a really hard time expressing some actions, including things like diplomacy checks. I greatly prefer to act those things out, but sometimes they get frustrated and it's okay if they just describe how they're trying to convince the NPC in 3rd person. I'm not going to force my preference on a player.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Game consequences or meta game consequences? Again, I think the latter gets ignored or dismissed in these discussions. If the rogue is investigating the chest for a trap, it doesn't matter if there is a trap or not. In most cases an investigation check will be called for because until the PC find a trap or opens the chest it's Schrodinger's trap; there is both a trap and there is not a trap until proven otherwise. </p><p></p><p>Not bogging the game down with checks is important, but there are many ways of handling it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are many times when I open my mouth and meaningless babble comes out, whether I intend it or not, so "Don't say something meaningless" is a pretty tall order! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> But it also just depends on what I feel is meaningful. Was my ogre shouting "I count 10! I count 10!" as they rolled another critical hit meaningful? It got a laugh so <em>I </em>think it was. I can't imagine people purposely add unnecessary fluff.</p><p></p><p>So to me it just depends on the group, the DM, the encounter. Keep things moving, pacing and keeping the world fun and interactive is something we should all work at. Exactly <em>how </em>you do that at your table is going to vary.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 8505789, member: 6801845"] First, apologies if I misunderstood. I had brain fog all day yesterday, fortunately I'm feeling much better today. I still have some thoughts on this (surprise, surprise). I think every DM, every group should find their own groove. That's why, to me, it came across as "this is [I]the way[/I] to play", whether or not that was the intent. I mean, I get it. We all find a style that works for us, it works better then other group's we've been in for us and we want to share. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that too often it veers into "Thou Shalt" when it was just something that we personally were excited to share. Because we want everyone to enjoy the hobby, right? So a bit more detail: Usually true, but oftentimes meaningful is only a word or two. "Which way did the thief run?" Depending on the situation, it could be "left", in other cases it could be a more flowery description that helps set the mood and scene including the thief sliding under some horses pulling a carriage spooking them, the carriage smashing [S]fruit stands [/S]chicken coops at the side of the street, general mayhem in the streets. Is one "better" than the other? Depends on the scenario. Of course at my table you may also get some dumb sarcastic comment. But if anyone throws dice at me I get to keep them, so it's meaningful [I]to me [/I]because, hey, free dice! First I disagree with the interpretation of meaningful consequences paragraph that people point to. Sometimes there's a meaningful [I]meta game[/I] consequence of [I]not[/I] calling for a roll. If a PC suspects an NPC is lying but doesn't get an insight check she'll know with absolute certainty that they are not lying. I think the text is misinterpreted. Even if it's not it's just one paragraph that IMHO is blown out of proportion. [SPOILER="The text in question"] [INDENT]When a player wants to do something, it’s often appropriate to let the attempt succeed without a roll or a reference to the character’s ability scores. [B]For example, a character doesn’t normally need to make a Dexterity check to walk across an empty room or a Charisma check to order a mug of ale.[/B] Only call for a roll if there is a meaningful consequence for failure.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]When deciding whether to use a roll, ask yourself two questions:[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][LIST] [*]Is a task so easy and so free of conflict and stress that there should be no chance of failure? [*]Is a task so inappropriate or impossible — such as hitting the moon with an arrow — that it can’t work? [/LIST][/INDENT] People tend to skim over (or omit) the bolded part. I think it's obviously talking about how you don't want to bog the game down with simple things, not an edict on how to handle a situation where the player could reasonably expect a check. [/SPOILER] Second, [I]does the narration add value to the game[/I]. I had a fair amount of fluff and description to my combats, but there's a time and a place for it. Too much and it's just bogging down combat, too little and the combat may not be as engaging. In a recent scenario the fighter was holding off an ogre and a warlord while everyone else was otherwise engaged. There was a decent amount of banter back and forth, with the Ogre being quite proud that he could count to 10 ("1, 2, more than 2, 10!") and the warlord offering the fighter a job because obviously he couldn't get good help while looking at the ogre. It was pretty touch and go for the fighter, I was rolling a lot of 20s. It was fun and engaging, but narrating every individual blow, or even most of them, would have been way too much. This is simply a matter of expediency. I'm okay with a player saying "Insight check?" because in context I know what they're attempting. In the rare cases I don't I clarify. There's also some things like history checks that it would just be weird for me to ask someone how they're trying to remember something. A player saying "History check on [the McGuffin]" is just reminding me they're trained in history. I'm even okay with the player saying "15 insight check?" because, again, it's just speeding up the game so we can get to the important stuff. It also depends on the player, I have a player that just has a really hard time expressing some actions, including things like diplomacy checks. I greatly prefer to act those things out, but sometimes they get frustrated and it's okay if they just describe how they're trying to convince the NPC in 3rd person. I'm not going to force my preference on a player. Game consequences or meta game consequences? Again, I think the latter gets ignored or dismissed in these discussions. If the rogue is investigating the chest for a trap, it doesn't matter if there is a trap or not. In most cases an investigation check will be called for because until the PC find a trap or opens the chest it's Schrodinger's trap; there is both a trap and there is not a trap until proven otherwise. Not bogging the game down with checks is important, but there are many ways of handling it. There are many times when I open my mouth and meaningless babble comes out, whether I intend it or not, so "Don't say something meaningless" is a pretty tall order! ;) But it also just depends on what I feel is meaningful. Was my ogre shouting "I count 10! I count 10!" as they rolled another critical hit meaningful? It got a laugh so [I]I [/I]think it was. I can't imagine people purposely add unnecessary fluff. So to me it just depends on the group, the DM, the encounter. Keep things moving, pacing and keeping the world fun and interactive is something we should all work at. Exactly [I]how [/I]you do that at your table is going to vary. [/QUOTE]
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