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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8506206" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Yup, it was the actual impetus for this thread, really.</p><p></p><p>In combat, when you deal hp damage to a foe that is not sufficient to kill it, any description of said hp loss it ultimately meaningless -- it can be described in such myriad ways as to render any fictional value to it meaningless. The only value is the current number of hp remaining, which is not usually part of the "narration" of a result (I've argued it should be, but the OP disagreed that such mechanical information is sufficient to qualify as "narration" with regard to PHB pg 6 procedures).</p><p></p><p>To give an example, if you attack a goblin with a longsword and do 5 damage to it (goblins have an average of 7 hp, and this particular goblin is average), the required fiction for this event is none. There is no required fiction here. I can describe this event using the same fiction that I can describe a miss -- "the goblin throws themselves to the side at the last minute with a desperate dodge!" Because any narration is going to be totally arbitrary, there's no "meaningful" narration to be had here. The only value that can be given is the remaining hp level of the goblin, or fiction that has been indexed to that in a way agreed to by all players such that the narration is just coded game information, like say, "the goblin looks really bad." How? There's no requirement for this, it's an arbitrary description by the GM to pass coded game info instead of saying, "the goblin has 2 hp left." In the game, though, the goblin suffers absolutely no constraints based on any given narration. It doesn't affect what the goblin can do or how it's resolved.</p><p></p><p>For the above, there are absolutely mechanics that do requires constrained fiction and specific narration. The case provided does not, so let's not wander off the example by changing the particulars so it's an example of something else.</p><p></p><p>To make a different example of the above, let's say that the goblin, after taking the damage, is described by the GM as "reeling" from the blow. This is an attempt to code information about the hp, but it's also a great example of how this narration is meaningless in the actual fiction (ie, not just passing coded mechanic information). There's absolutely no action that the PCs can take to leverage the goblin reeling. If the goblin happens to be next in the initiative order, they instantly recover from this "reeling" for no cost. If someone else goes, there's no action declaration they can make that can leverage the "reeling" the goblin to doing for any advantage (mechanical or not) or action not available otherwise. The description of the goblin "reeling" is passing no fictional information or change other than if "reeling" is an established table code for "low on hp."</p><p></p><p>And to address why I say established table code, there's no narration defined for what low on hp looks like. Having 1 hp or 100 hp has no attached fictional meaning in the game. If my max hp is 1 and I have 1 hp, what does this look like (as in defined by the game)? If my max is 100 hp and I have 99, what does that look like? Any description here is arbitrary, and the description isn't doing any work in the game (outside of entertainment value for the table). The only work that can be done here is the work that is done by any shared coding for relative health. Look at the goblin example again. Max hp 7, current hp 2, so roughly that goblin is 3/4 of the way down from max hp. But look at a dragon, with 200 hp. The same fraction would be 50 hp left. The goblin is pretty much toast to any blow (the vast majority of which will carry at least a +1 damage bonus and so drop the hp total to 0), but is only 3/4 of the way down. No simple weapon blow will kill the dragon (maybe a paladin smite on a crit with good rolls, but that's a smite), but it's at the same percentage of health the goblin is. The descriptions of these states will often vary, but in doing so they're not being consistent. What they're doing here is passing that coded information that says what level of effort might be still left to reduce the hp total to 0.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8506206, member: 16814"] Yup, it was the actual impetus for this thread, really. In combat, when you deal hp damage to a foe that is not sufficient to kill it, any description of said hp loss it ultimately meaningless -- it can be described in such myriad ways as to render any fictional value to it meaningless. The only value is the current number of hp remaining, which is not usually part of the "narration" of a result (I've argued it should be, but the OP disagreed that such mechanical information is sufficient to qualify as "narration" with regard to PHB pg 6 procedures). To give an example, if you attack a goblin with a longsword and do 5 damage to it (goblins have an average of 7 hp, and this particular goblin is average), the required fiction for this event is none. There is no required fiction here. I can describe this event using the same fiction that I can describe a miss -- "the goblin throws themselves to the side at the last minute with a desperate dodge!" Because any narration is going to be totally arbitrary, there's no "meaningful" narration to be had here. The only value that can be given is the remaining hp level of the goblin, or fiction that has been indexed to that in a way agreed to by all players such that the narration is just coded game information, like say, "the goblin looks really bad." How? There's no requirement for this, it's an arbitrary description by the GM to pass coded game info instead of saying, "the goblin has 2 hp left." In the game, though, the goblin suffers absolutely no constraints based on any given narration. It doesn't affect what the goblin can do or how it's resolved. For the above, there are absolutely mechanics that do requires constrained fiction and specific narration. The case provided does not, so let's not wander off the example by changing the particulars so it's an example of something else. To make a different example of the above, let's say that the goblin, after taking the damage, is described by the GM as "reeling" from the blow. This is an attempt to code information about the hp, but it's also a great example of how this narration is meaningless in the actual fiction (ie, not just passing coded mechanic information). There's absolutely no action that the PCs can take to leverage the goblin reeling. If the goblin happens to be next in the initiative order, they instantly recover from this "reeling" for no cost. If someone else goes, there's no action declaration they can make that can leverage the "reeling" the goblin to doing for any advantage (mechanical or not) or action not available otherwise. The description of the goblin "reeling" is passing no fictional information or change other than if "reeling" is an established table code for "low on hp." And to address why I say established table code, there's no narration defined for what low on hp looks like. Having 1 hp or 100 hp has no attached fictional meaning in the game. If my max hp is 1 and I have 1 hp, what does this look like (as in defined by the game)? If my max is 100 hp and I have 99, what does that look like? Any description here is arbitrary, and the description isn't doing any work in the game (outside of entertainment value for the table). The only work that can be done here is the work that is done by any shared coding for relative health. Look at the goblin example again. Max hp 7, current hp 2, so roughly that goblin is 3/4 of the way down from max hp. But look at a dragon, with 200 hp. The same fraction would be 50 hp left. The goblin is pretty much toast to any blow (the vast majority of which will carry at least a +1 damage bonus and so drop the hp total to 0), but is only 3/4 of the way down. No simple weapon blow will kill the dragon (maybe a paladin smite on a crit with good rolls, but that's a smite), but it's at the same percentage of health the goblin is. The descriptions of these states will often vary, but in doing so they're not being consistent. What they're doing here is passing that coded information that says what level of effort might be still left to reduce the hp total to 0. [/QUOTE]
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