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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8507899" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Again it seems that initial conception needs 'teeth'. 'meaningful' cannot simply be left as some nebulous concept that floats out there doing no work. It must produce some concrete effect in the process of play of the game, somehow. We need to be able to distinguish what is meaningful and non-meaningful, and we must have some instruction as to how to handle each one.</p><p></p><p>In the end I don't think this whole approach of the OP gets you anywhere. It was a reaction to the whole question in another thread about when checks should be called for in a game, and then the consequent follow-on debate about whether not it makes sense to make people roll dice when nothing, fictionally, is really at stake. </p><p></p><p>I don't even see how '5e*' resolves that at all, which probably means I'm agreeing with you, lol. Its hard to tell at this point, my mind has been fuddled with too much rhetoric.</p><p></p><p>So this is my contribution: If you want only 'meaningful' stuff happening, then define it. My personal definition is "things which address the dramatic considerations attendant on the player's depictions of their characters, and what follows from them." I haven't subjected this statement to any deep analysis, so I'm sure it can be picked apart, or refined. The point is, if no real substantive difference will exist in the fiction, and if nothing inherent to the action bears on characterization, then its not really meaningful. </p><p></p><p>The Rogue goes to the bar and plays cards with his buddies. Does it matter if he wins or loses? I don't think so. His buddies will still be his buddies tomorrow, even if he takes a bit of their coin. Now, if he has some sort of goal or plan, or there's some kind of fictional point hinging on what happens in this card game, OK, then play it out. More than that, if the PC risks some significant stakes, sure, dice for it! Significant in my mind is a bit more than "he might be broke tomorrow" though, unless that will produce some really different narrative. Even then, if its just set up for something, it doesn't really need to be played out in detail. "You diced with your buddies last night, and you lost your last 100gp. You're feeling a bit hungry now, and this guy is offering you some coin to do a job for him. He's an unsavory fellow and the work goes against your better instincts (describe it here) but you DO need the coin..."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8507899, member: 82106"] Again it seems that initial conception needs 'teeth'. 'meaningful' cannot simply be left as some nebulous concept that floats out there doing no work. It must produce some concrete effect in the process of play of the game, somehow. We need to be able to distinguish what is meaningful and non-meaningful, and we must have some instruction as to how to handle each one. In the end I don't think this whole approach of the OP gets you anywhere. It was a reaction to the whole question in another thread about when checks should be called for in a game, and then the consequent follow-on debate about whether not it makes sense to make people roll dice when nothing, fictionally, is really at stake. I don't even see how '5e*' resolves that at all, which probably means I'm agreeing with you, lol. Its hard to tell at this point, my mind has been fuddled with too much rhetoric. So this is my contribution: If you want only 'meaningful' stuff happening, then define it. My personal definition is "things which address the dramatic considerations attendant on the player's depictions of their characters, and what follows from them." I haven't subjected this statement to any deep analysis, so I'm sure it can be picked apart, or refined. The point is, if no real substantive difference will exist in the fiction, and if nothing inherent to the action bears on characterization, then its not really meaningful. The Rogue goes to the bar and plays cards with his buddies. Does it matter if he wins or loses? I don't think so. His buddies will still be his buddies tomorrow, even if he takes a bit of their coin. Now, if he has some sort of goal or plan, or there's some kind of fictional point hinging on what happens in this card game, OK, then play it out. More than that, if the PC risks some significant stakes, sure, dice for it! Significant in my mind is a bit more than "he might be broke tomorrow" though, unless that will produce some really different narrative. Even then, if its just set up for something, it doesn't really need to be played out in detail. "You diced with your buddies last night, and you lost your last 100gp. You're feeling a bit hungry now, and this guy is offering you some coin to do a job for him. He's an unsavory fellow and the work goes against your better instincts (describe it here) but you DO need the coin..." [/QUOTE]
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