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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8507916" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>To clarify, it was a reaction to the statement that some mechanical resolutions in 5e (and, in fact, in almost all RPGs) do not create required fiction from those resolutions.  The example that started this was hp loss in combat -- unless the hp drops to 0, there's no required fictional change by the resolution process.  This then moved to looking at ability checks, and it was pointed out that "no progress" which is no change to the fictional state was available.  This then grabbed the line in the DMG about only calling for check if there were meaningful consequences, so this paired with the basic play loop from pg 6 of the PHB actually requires that there be a fictional state change, a meaningful change to the fiction, as the outcome of any player/GM interaction but especially ability checks.  Again, it was pointed out that no progress is a clearly intended outcome of a failed ability check (PHB pg 174) (note, not the only possible, but absolutely intended to be an outcome).  This was then agreed to, and the muddying of what "meaningful" means started.  Ultimately, if we trace the argument back to the initial disagreement, then we need to be evaluating 5e* in terms of whether or not it's creating fictional state changes as an output.  The claim that it follow RAW while doing so needs a large grain of salt, but discarding that and looking at how it might do this state change then, sure, you can mandate that all GM narration must create state changes in the fiction.  The problem here is that this is now unmoored from the resolution engine in 5e -- there are cases that the engine doesn't create any change to the fiction that's discernable but we're mandated to make such a change.  This is why I've advanced that any such changes are arbitrary and only the GM's whim -- there's not constrain or guidance for these changes other than "thou shalt make changes."</p></blockquote><p></p>

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