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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8525364" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I'm not convinced that Dave Arneson, would put it that way, however. I think he might point out to you that the 'Braunstein' format they were using was not a wargame at all, in any sense. It was operational simulation, done for (AFAIK) entertainment. Any individual instance of it might have more or less 'game' (mechanics and structure) injected, depending on the subject matter, but IMHO what Dave did was take role playing and open-ended operational simulation, and GRAFT ON some additional structure in the form of rules taken from places like Chainmail to produce the familiar D&D TTRPG.</p><p></p><p>It is even more complex than that really. Kriegspiel itself began as an early TT wargame, much like minis games (IE Chainmail) back in the earlier part of the 19th Century. This was recognized by the Prussian military as possibly useful in their training of officers/staff (it was invented by a former military officer). Soon they discovered that the rigid formalisms of stands of troops and fixed sorts of moves and such was too rigid to provide a useful degree of realistic training as such. Referees were added, and much of the rules structure was discarded, and the game evolved over time into 'Free' Kriegspiel exercises, which are much closer in structure to a Braunstein. </p><p></p><p>BOTH the more formal miniatures wargame strain AND the more generalized operational simulation/'Braunstein' type of play spread from there (and there was already some existing wargaming traditions unrelated to early Kriegspiel). Dave Arneson really represents a RECONNECTION of these disparate lines of development, with the product being predictably a fusion of rules, process, and conceptual framework drawing from both. </p><p></p><p>My point is, there was no 'evolution through the 60s' of an idea of open-ended play. Open ended play was invented IN THE 1870s at the Prussian General Staff!!! The innovation was really the thematics of FRPG, and the conceptual framework of 'parties' and 'adventures' and such which was really a rather original concept that Dave came up with in c1973. Games like Chainmail, though more rigid than Braunsteins and thus D&D, also drew from the same 19th Century tradition, and a degree of openness ALWAYS existed. In fact the development of Avalon Hill style totally systematized games is the more recent development which only happened in the 1950's, perhaps under the influence of parlor games.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8525364, member: 82106"] I'm not convinced that Dave Arneson, would put it that way, however. I think he might point out to you that the 'Braunstein' format they were using was not a wargame at all, in any sense. It was operational simulation, done for (AFAIK) entertainment. Any individual instance of it might have more or less 'game' (mechanics and structure) injected, depending on the subject matter, but IMHO what Dave did was take role playing and open-ended operational simulation, and GRAFT ON some additional structure in the form of rules taken from places like Chainmail to produce the familiar D&D TTRPG. It is even more complex than that really. Kriegspiel itself began as an early TT wargame, much like minis games (IE Chainmail) back in the earlier part of the 19th Century. This was recognized by the Prussian military as possibly useful in their training of officers/staff (it was invented by a former military officer). Soon they discovered that the rigid formalisms of stands of troops and fixed sorts of moves and such was too rigid to provide a useful degree of realistic training as such. Referees were added, and much of the rules structure was discarded, and the game evolved over time into 'Free' Kriegspiel exercises, which are much closer in structure to a Braunstein. BOTH the more formal miniatures wargame strain AND the more generalized operational simulation/'Braunstein' type of play spread from there (and there was already some existing wargaming traditions unrelated to early Kriegspiel). Dave Arneson really represents a RECONNECTION of these disparate lines of development, with the product being predictably a fusion of rules, process, and conceptual framework drawing from both. My point is, there was no 'evolution through the 60s' of an idea of open-ended play. Open ended play was invented IN THE 1870s at the Prussian General Staff!!! The innovation was really the thematics of FRPG, and the conceptual framework of 'parties' and 'adventures' and such which was really a rather original concept that Dave came up with in c1973. Games like Chainmail, though more rigid than Braunsteins and thus D&D, also drew from the same 19th Century tradition, and a degree of openness ALWAYS existed. In fact the development of Avalon Hill style totally systematized games is the more recent development which only happened in the 1950's, perhaps under the influence of parlor games. [/QUOTE]
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