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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6659594" data-attributes="member: 5834">I haven't played enough 4E to speak on it.3E/Pathfinder improvisation was fairly rare because the level of rules codification did not require much improvisation. If a player wanted to do something, there was usually a rule for it. There was almost nothing a player wanted to accomplish that wasn't codified at some point. The rule for general effects fell under the Dirty Trick maneuver in Pathfinder. Players tended not to use maneuvers like Sunder because they didn't want to lose magic items. You could effectively wipe out opponents weapons. Disarm them. Move them around with reposition. Grapple. Overrun. Knock prone. Pathfinder eventually released an interesting martial arts system as well with a fantasy flavor that was very fun.Most of improvisation in 3E/Pathfinder consisted of things like cutting down a pillar to bring a roof down or creative use of items in a room. Most everything was codified as more books were released until you could hardly do anything without looking in a book for the rule. That's one of the things that started to turn me off about the game. It was a very robust rule set for player options. Players could accomplish a ton with feats, skills, and combat maneuvers, far in excess of either of 4E or 5E. You had to know the system to know how to adjudicate it as a DM. It started to feel like homework.Then again Pathfinder characters were ridiculously powerful at high level. Even hordes of demons couldn't slow them down. Once they released Mythic Adventures in Pathfinder it went from ridiculous to "I can't even challenge a party of these characters." Nightmarishly powerful characters in Mythic Adventures. Then again they were supposed to be characters like Hercules or any mythical hero you read about with a god as their parent.</blockquote>

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