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<blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 6614078" data-attributes="member: 5038">Khaalis,I am in complete agreement.&nbsp; One of my three &quot;major&quot; dislikes of 5e (i.e. things I need to address house rule) is that several classes have to wait until third level for their subclass.&nbsp; The reason is that variations of archetypes are often influenced by culture, environment, where they trained, who trained them and the differentiation should start at first level. Waiting until third level means, the character picks up baggage they have to ignore and often wait for things they should have, thematically, at the start.&nbsp; Your Zorro example is a perfect example. As with you, it would not feel right thematically or mechanically as a subclass of the standard fighter.I also agree with you on the issue of min-max and abuse. I started to add something similar to what you wrote, but due to lack of sleep and slipping into a &quot;food coma&quot; from a mother's day buffet, I was not sure if I was coming across as confrontational to spinozojack and erased the part of my post.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greg K, post: 6614078, member: 5038"] Khaalis, I am in complete agreement. One of my three "major" dislikes of 5e (i.e. things I need to address house rule) is that several classes have to wait until third level for their subclass. The reason is that variations of archetypes are often influenced by culture, environment, where they trained, who trained them and the differentiation should start at first level. Waiting until third level means, the character picks up baggage they have to ignore and often wait for things they should have, thematically, at the start. Your Zorro example is a perfect example. As with you, it would not feel right thematically or mechanically as a subclass of the standard fighter. I also agree with you on the issue of min-max and abuse. I started to add something similar to what you wrote, but due to lack of sleep and slipping into a "food coma" from a mother's day buffet, I was not sure if I was coming across as confrontational to spinozojack and erased the part of my post. [/QUOTE]

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