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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 5801258" data-attributes="member: 53980">Your "inferior" game design is my "superior" game design, although I'd agree that it was a bumpy road getting there.Regarding mages who could ignore their limitations; yes, it was an issue in 2e and 3e, primarily because the designers left the magic system mostly intact. If you remove limitations, you have to remove some of the corresponding power. IMO, they finally got it right with 4e, in that the magic system no longer reflected the assumptions about mages that 1e had made.IMO, 4e did get it right (although it may, admittedly, have gone a tad overboard). Balancing between god-like power and peasant-like vulnerabilities wasn't the best design. Their god-like power could often completely negate the peasant-like vulnerabilities (such as casting mirror image to avoid being a one-shot kill). Wizards survived in early editions only if the DM had mercy on them. Without their defensive spells, one hit would kill them at 1st level, and oftentimes even later (if it was a hard hit, from a giant or some such). If the DM wanted to, he could have a goblin slip around the fighter and finish off the mage before anyone could do otherwise. But back in the 1e/2e days, we were nice. We typically avoided attacking the poor little mage too often, because to do so felt unfair, akin to bullying a kindergartener. I DM'd 2e, I remember.The 4e wizard can be incredible if you choose the right spells for him (something which has been true of D&D wizards irrespective of edition). What he cannot do anymore, is win the entire encounter with a single spell. In return, he has increased survivability, though he's still no fighter. Nonetheless, he can turn the tide of the encounter with a single spell. Personally, I much prefer the new balance. I think casting one spell and thereby winning is bland and boring. Give me a real struggle any day!I do agree, however, that I'd like to see some of the utility magic return outside of rituals. The good news is that it sounds like that's what they're doing for 5e!In the end, what I was saying, when you quoted me, was that mages in fantasy aren't limited to stories from Vance. Not every mage is a demigod waiting to be. Plenty of stories are about mages whose powers are far more subtle. In addition, plenty of stories are about mages who don't ascribe to D&D limitations. While balance is of utmost import to me (right up there with fun), I believe that allowing players to tell their story with the character they envision is also very important.</blockquote>

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