Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e fireballs
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5802191" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>Yeah, I think you assume too much about how the game is SUPPOSED to be played by DMs and players as opposed to how it really should be handled by intelligent or outnumbering foes.</p><p></p><p>As one example:</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-eberron/311263-adventure-rhapsody-part-2-judge-renau1g-9.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-eberron/311263-adventure-rhapsody-part-2-judge-renau1g-9.html</a></p><p></p><p>This was an N+3 encounter. The Warden got bloodied, but the Wizard and the Invoker got knocked unconscious once each. The animal companion (who are significantly lower in hit points than PCs) got killed 3 times. The Warden tried to keep foes away from the other PCs as did the Shaman|Druid with summoned and conjured creatures, but the problem comes in when Wizards and other squishy PCs just don't have room to run away, or to get a cover bonus, and/or one or more foes concentrate on them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, in small rooms with an equal number of foes max, a Defender can often hold off enough foes so that the other PCs can handle the rest. And, Defenders also tend to have powers to bring some foes to them or to penalize a foe for attacking someone else other than the Defender. Defenders work especially well against solos.</p><p></p><p>But, the concept that there is balance here between the classes only works if the DM is willing to play his NPCs in a certain (rather stupid metagaming) ways, both in NPC decision making and in dungeon design. A reasonably intelligent NPC with a melee attack should rarely try to go toe to toe with a heavily armored PC. Does it make sense to do so? But I sometimes see some DMs have even mobile NPCs go up and do just that encounter after encounter.</p><p></p><p>In 4E since they changed the charge rules, it makes sense for most semi-intelligent melee NPCs (and even ranged NPCs) to ignore anyone who looks hard to take out, move around them and charge/focus on the PCs that look easiest to take out. Dumb NPCs? Sure. They should often target the closest PC.</p><p></p><p>Extremely intelligent NPCs should shout directions out to allies to attack certain dangerous and/or lightly armored PCs (which if you go read the attached link, that is what my leader type NPCs do a lot). As an example, once a PC heals other PCs, that PC should become a prime target candidate. If a PC (really, not just minorly) locks down a few NPCs, that PC should become a prime target candidate. If a PC starts doing a lot of damage, that PC should become a prime target candidate. But until the NPCs can tell which PCs are doing what, they should focus on the softest looking PCs. I cannot think of many reasons that a Defender PC should become a prime target, but I can think of a lot of ways for many NPCs to get around Defenders.</p><p></p><p></p><p>And, my analysis above only took into account damage. Another major problem with low defenses for squishy PCs is the rider effects that can occur with a hit. The first level Wizard getting hit 60% of the time compared to the Fighter at 35% of the time means that the Wizard has a higher chance of getting some effect on him. The concept that Wizards shouldn't use defensive feats and should be more cannon and less glass won't work in a game where the DM challenges all of his players.</p><p></p><p>So yes, there is nothing wrong with having squishy PCs as long as the squishy PCs get over compensated such that they are taking out (either with damage or nearly total control) more NPCs than the non-squishy PCs. I just don't see that with 4E Wizards unless that Wizard uses a Daily attack power and they only get at most 2 of those per day until level 10. Dazing or slowing or knocking down or even moving an NPC around usually just doesn't cut it with respect to power and/or versatility in comparison to how defensively weak Wizards are designed to be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5802191, member: 2011"] Yeah, I think you assume too much about how the game is SUPPOSED to be played by DMs and players as opposed to how it really should be handled by intelligent or outnumbering foes. As one example: [url]http://www.enworld.org/forum/living-eberron/311263-adventure-rhapsody-part-2-judge-renau1g-9.html[/url] This was an N+3 encounter. The Warden got bloodied, but the Wizard and the Invoker got knocked unconscious once each. The animal companion (who are significantly lower in hit points than PCs) got killed 3 times. The Warden tried to keep foes away from the other PCs as did the Shaman|Druid with summoned and conjured creatures, but the problem comes in when Wizards and other squishy PCs just don't have room to run away, or to get a cover bonus, and/or one or more foes concentrate on them. Sure, in small rooms with an equal number of foes max, a Defender can often hold off enough foes so that the other PCs can handle the rest. And, Defenders also tend to have powers to bring some foes to them or to penalize a foe for attacking someone else other than the Defender. Defenders work especially well against solos. But, the concept that there is balance here between the classes only works if the DM is willing to play his NPCs in a certain (rather stupid metagaming) ways, both in NPC decision making and in dungeon design. A reasonably intelligent NPC with a melee attack should rarely try to go toe to toe with a heavily armored PC. Does it make sense to do so? But I sometimes see some DMs have even mobile NPCs go up and do just that encounter after encounter. In 4E since they changed the charge rules, it makes sense for most semi-intelligent melee NPCs (and even ranged NPCs) to ignore anyone who looks hard to take out, move around them and charge/focus on the PCs that look easiest to take out. Dumb NPCs? Sure. They should often target the closest PC. Extremely intelligent NPCs should shout directions out to allies to attack certain dangerous and/or lightly armored PCs (which if you go read the attached link, that is what my leader type NPCs do a lot). As an example, once a PC heals other PCs, that PC should become a prime target candidate. If a PC (really, not just minorly) locks down a few NPCs, that PC should become a prime target candidate. If a PC starts doing a lot of damage, that PC should become a prime target candidate. But until the NPCs can tell which PCs are doing what, they should focus on the softest looking PCs. I cannot think of many reasons that a Defender PC should become a prime target, but I can think of a lot of ways for many NPCs to get around Defenders. And, my analysis above only took into account damage. Another major problem with low defenses for squishy PCs is the rider effects that can occur with a hit. The first level Wizard getting hit 60% of the time compared to the Fighter at 35% of the time means that the Wizard has a higher chance of getting some effect on him. The concept that Wizards shouldn't use defensive feats and should be more cannon and less glass won't work in a game where the DM challenges all of his players. So yes, there is nothing wrong with having squishy PCs as long as the squishy PCs get over compensated such that they are taking out (either with damage or nearly total control) more NPCs than the non-squishy PCs. I just don't see that with 4E Wizards unless that Wizard uses a Daily attack power and they only get at most 2 of those per day until level 10. Dazing or slowing or knocking down or even moving an NPC around usually just doesn't cut it with respect to power and/or versatility in comparison to how defensively weak Wizards are designed to be. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e fireballs
Top