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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 5802465" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>There are plenty of powers that work better than marks. You keep trying to take everything out of context. 4e is less about the individual PC and more about the party. If the DM is focusing on attacking the squishies, then it's everyone's job to take abilities that neutralize his ability to do so. </p><p></p><p>Shift and charge isn't worth much if the Aegis on the creature makes it hit like a commoner, nor does shift and charge work if you're being grabbed by a brawling fighter. Take lots of abilities that slow and immobilize (and if you slow something, be smart and move outside it's range). Take abilities that penalize enemies more than a mark. Take evasive abilities. Take extra healing. Stand near the fighter in such a way that enemies have a hard time shifting to a place they can charge from.</p><p></p><p>The simple fact is that if the DM is going to play the meta-gaming arms race game, then the PCs need to do the same if they're going to keep pace, but that's true of any edition. The simple fact is that the players have the upper hand here. As long as you coordinate, you're several minds against one. I prefer to avoid the arms race and don't take this behavior to absurd lengths though. As long as you remember to challenge everyone, I think you're being a good DM. </p><p></p><p>I've seen it done. It works fine. So what if the Wizard needs a few powers for defense? It would be boring if the fighter always held every creature. It would be even more boring if the fighter didn't need to because everyone else was just as strong as the fighter. And if someone is really having that much trouble, they should be able to get a very competitive AC with a few feats and Staff of Defense. I still don't think you should need it if you have a good party dynamic though.</p><p></p><p>A greatweapon fighter has his downsides too. When he needs to tank hard (CAGI) he'll have a much harder time staying on his feet than his friend who focused on defense. Someone who doesn't focus on defense will always have a harder time staying on his feet than someone who does; that just makes sense.</p><p></p><p>As to the N + 3 encounter, my point is that it's a hard encounter. If it ends without someone going unconscious, the PCs got lucky. Show me a typical N + 0 encounter where the squishies are all bleeding on the ground and I might actually agree with you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 5802465, member: 53980"] There are plenty of powers that work better than marks. You keep trying to take everything out of context. 4e is less about the individual PC and more about the party. If the DM is focusing on attacking the squishies, then it's everyone's job to take abilities that neutralize his ability to do so. Shift and charge isn't worth much if the Aegis on the creature makes it hit like a commoner, nor does shift and charge work if you're being grabbed by a brawling fighter. Take lots of abilities that slow and immobilize (and if you slow something, be smart and move outside it's range). Take abilities that penalize enemies more than a mark. Take evasive abilities. Take extra healing. Stand near the fighter in such a way that enemies have a hard time shifting to a place they can charge from. The simple fact is that if the DM is going to play the meta-gaming arms race game, then the PCs need to do the same if they're going to keep pace, but that's true of any edition. The simple fact is that the players have the upper hand here. As long as you coordinate, you're several minds against one. I prefer to avoid the arms race and don't take this behavior to absurd lengths though. As long as you remember to challenge everyone, I think you're being a good DM. I've seen it done. It works fine. So what if the Wizard needs a few powers for defense? It would be boring if the fighter always held every creature. It would be even more boring if the fighter didn't need to because everyone else was just as strong as the fighter. And if someone is really having that much trouble, they should be able to get a very competitive AC with a few feats and Staff of Defense. I still don't think you should need it if you have a good party dynamic though. A greatweapon fighter has his downsides too. When he needs to tank hard (CAGI) he'll have a much harder time staying on his feet than his friend who focused on defense. Someone who doesn't focus on defense will always have a harder time staying on his feet than someone who does; that just makes sense. As to the N + 3 encounter, my point is that it's a hard encounter. If it ends without someone going unconscious, the PCs got lucky. Show me a typical N + 0 encounter where the squishies are all bleeding on the ground and I might actually agree with you. [/QUOTE]
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