Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8286334" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And if all I get are buzzwords and abstract concepts then I rapidly come to the conclusion that it does nothing.</p><p></p><p>No. By my logic you need to get into the details to show why what a wizard can do that an EK or AT can't. Which is pretty easy.</p><p></p><p>No - by that logic the case for artificers <em>needed to be affirmatively made</em>. How does what an artificer does differ from what a wizard does? Other than y'know, infusions and the like. Or for example having a central subclass feature being an Iron Man suit. Oh, wait. </p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure that most people realise I'm a fan of 4e - but one of the parts of 4e I was disappointed in was the 4e artificer because it didn't show why it was different from any other class and needed to exist other than to carry the name. If you can differentiate your psion from the existing classes to the extent the 5e artificer is while keeping them relatively balanced I'll agree they are a good addition.</p><p></p><p>As for what's <em>needed</em> why do we need to go beyond the four basic classes? On the other hand there are advantages in doing so - it opens up more concepts to be played. But each time we add something like a class there's a penalty; it makes the game larger, more complex, more confusing and, most importantly less accessible.</p><p></p><p>We didn't <em>need</em> artificers. Far from it. But adding artificers added to the game so it was worth the cost adding an extra class </p><p></p><p>No. You get to be psionic because you're a trickster who uses supernatural powers to control and warp minds and perception and explicitly does so through psionic means.</p><p></p><p>So if I go back through the editions and look to see if the psions in other editions have been able to cast Mind Sliver and they can't they aren't psionic? Riiiight. While I agree that Mind Sliver <em>should</em> be on the bard list alongside their favourite Vicious Mockery, I find this litmus test ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>But this paragraph undermines just about any use for a psionic class; if your litmus test for a psionic class is that they fundamentally must be able to cast spells then we already have more than half a dozen classes that can cast spells. The reason an artificer is a separate class is that their fundamental thing isn't spellcasting. It's making and modifying stuff. A psion (and this includes Mearls' mystic) appears to be all about spending spell points (rather than slots) to do spell-stuff.</p><p></p><p>There is a niche I've been mentioning frequently in threads, and the Psion can grab it. It's the same role as the 4e Elementalist Sorcerer, Can Just Do Stuff with as little juggling as possible (although the Warlock is already pretty close to that(. In the Psion example it would be going <em>Carrie </em>rather than throwing water balls at people.</p><p></p><p>Here I think we're on about the same page. You might want more out of defiling than 4e gave, but defiling and preserving should be a choice on a spell by spell basis rather than separate classes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8286334, member: 87792"] And if all I get are buzzwords and abstract concepts then I rapidly come to the conclusion that it does nothing. No. By my logic you need to get into the details to show why what a wizard can do that an EK or AT can't. Which is pretty easy. No - by that logic the case for artificers [I]needed to be affirmatively made[/I]. How does what an artificer does differ from what a wizard does? Other than y'know, infusions and the like. Or for example having a central subclass feature being an Iron Man suit. Oh, wait. I'm pretty sure that most people realise I'm a fan of 4e - but one of the parts of 4e I was disappointed in was the 4e artificer because it didn't show why it was different from any other class and needed to exist other than to carry the name. If you can differentiate your psion from the existing classes to the extent the 5e artificer is while keeping them relatively balanced I'll agree they are a good addition. As for what's [I]needed[/I] why do we need to go beyond the four basic classes? On the other hand there are advantages in doing so - it opens up more concepts to be played. But each time we add something like a class there's a penalty; it makes the game larger, more complex, more confusing and, most importantly less accessible. We didn't [I]need[/I] artificers. Far from it. But adding artificers added to the game so it was worth the cost adding an extra class No. You get to be psionic because you're a trickster who uses supernatural powers to control and warp minds and perception and explicitly does so through psionic means. So if I go back through the editions and look to see if the psions in other editions have been able to cast Mind Sliver and they can't they aren't psionic? Riiiight. While I agree that Mind Sliver [I]should[/I] be on the bard list alongside their favourite Vicious Mockery, I find this litmus test ridiculous. But this paragraph undermines just about any use for a psionic class; if your litmus test for a psionic class is that they fundamentally must be able to cast spells then we already have more than half a dozen classes that can cast spells. The reason an artificer is a separate class is that their fundamental thing isn't spellcasting. It's making and modifying stuff. A psion (and this includes Mearls' mystic) appears to be all about spending spell points (rather than slots) to do spell-stuff. There is a niche I've been mentioning frequently in threads, and the Psion can grab it. It's the same role as the 4e Elementalist Sorcerer, Can Just Do Stuff with as little juggling as possible (although the Warlock is already pretty close to that(. In the Psion example it would be going [I]Carrie [/I]rather than throwing water balls at people. Here I think we're on about the same page. You might want more out of defiling than 4e gave, but defiling and preserving should be a choice on a spell by spell basis rather than separate classes. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun
Top