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5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8619286" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Yes. An aura. Which is a game term. Which you then map to whatever the fiction should look like. Whether its a cloud of whirling daggers orbiting you, an infernal corona, or a crazy level of martial prowess/speed/ferocity/implacability, its all the same stuff. And it ablates HP all the same...because HP is a giant pile of "heroic goo" that you map into the fiction as required to resolve play.</p><p></p><p>For instance, in 5e, you have Cloud of Daggers. A measly 2nd level spell. You have a bunch of daggers that do slashing damage. Not force. Not elements. Actual_daggers_conjured_doing_actual_slashing_damage. Guess what happens if a level 20 hero in 5e, adorned in Full Plate, starts their turn in it? No save. No attack roll. That epic hero is going to take 4-16 damage from these whirling daggers. Even a level 20 hero, adorned in Full Plate, with Heavy Armor Mastery will still take at least 1-13 HP of damage!</p><p></p><p>So what is happening here? Is this nonsensical fiction? No. Because this fully plate clad, otherworldy skilled, mythological hero doesn't even have to get nicked to lose 1-13 HP. That can trivially be them spending their prowess gas tank to stay in the fight. They're more tired, less lucky, less capable of deploying the apex processing skills a martial artist must deploy to come out on top. Whatever.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And this is totally cool.</p><p></p><p>Totally legitimate take.</p><p></p><p>4e D&D combat is wildly different from Torchbearer Kill Conflicts or Dogs in the VIneyard "Escalate to Guns" Conflicts.</p><p></p><p>The latter two are extremely visceral experiences with some engaging tactical overhead. They're also over much, much more quickly than 4e combats (I ran 2 * campaigns 1-30 and 3 more campaigns whose levels totaled about another 40...so about 100 levels worth of 4e GMing). My group of 3 PCs + 1 GM (me) was extremely quick in our processing/managing of a 4e combat and we used an eggshell timer so even Level +5 Encounter Budget ("deadly") fights averaged only 35 minutes-ish. But that is about 3 x as long as a TB or Dogs conflict.</p><p></p><p>And I enjoy Cortex+ Conflicts and Dread resolution and PBtA resolution and FitD resolution and Sorcerer resolution and Shadows of Yesterday resolution and My Life With Master resolution and Everway resolution and Moldvay Basic and RC D&D resolution. And plenty of others, all with profoundly divergent system architecture, too many to enumerate.</p><p></p><p>And I enjoy 5e's combat minigame and 5e social-combat-as-Pictionary/Wheel of Fortune that is its Social Interaction conflict mechanics.</p><p></p><p>There are all kinds of ways to skin a TTRPG cat. But every_single_one of them relies upon obviously game constructs meant to facilitate play of a game. The problem comes when someone tries to make a claim that their autobiographical cognitive orientation toward system is a fundamental truism of reality...an objective, verifiable fault of a game engine (rather than, at least in no small part, an autobiographical fact about them)- <strong>see Lyxen "Sorry, once more, its purely gamist." </strong> My ability to toggle when I would run 4e and then run Torchbearer and then run Apocalypse World and then run a Moldvay Basic dungeon crawl in the span of 1 week back in 2014 (all massively divergent systems) isn't a superpower. But I can toggle naturally or...where I've had to...I've conscientiously worked to develop my ability to toggle. And plenty of others can do the same and have done the same. That is empirical evidence that these extremely divergent systems are not exclusively responsible for my personal cognitive state nor your inability to toggle cognitively when thinking about them or playing them (either innately or develop it). There is all 3 of system + a biological footprint + a level of ownership by the user.</p><p></p><p>It becomes especially problematic when they forgive their favored systems of the same "indiscretions" that they hold other systems to account for. D&D's history is utterly riddled with gamist artifacts that couldn't be further away from process simulation (hence why so many fled to BRP and Rolemaster and the like early on) which get looked past or apologized for when its expedient for partisanship/factionalism but hammered on relentlessly when its expedient for partisanship/factionalism in the opposite direction.</p><p></p><p>"I can't easily get my brain around this game but I can get my brain around this other game so screw it I'm going to play the 2nd one" is a totally legit opinion about any game whether its 4e D&D or Dogs in the Vineyard or Everway or Ars Magica or even Moldvay Basic with all of its extreme gamist trappings. But "this game is uniquely and objectively filled with purely gamist mechanics and I have no ownership over my response to it" is not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8619286, member: 6696971"] Yes. An aura. Which is a game term. Which you then map to whatever the fiction should look like. Whether its a cloud of whirling daggers orbiting you, an infernal corona, or a crazy level of martial prowess/speed/ferocity/implacability, its all the same stuff. And it ablates HP all the same...because HP is a giant pile of "heroic goo" that you map into the fiction as required to resolve play. For instance, in 5e, you have Cloud of Daggers. A measly 2nd level spell. You have a bunch of daggers that do slashing damage. Not force. Not elements. Actual_daggers_conjured_doing_actual_slashing_damage. Guess what happens if a level 20 hero in 5e, adorned in Full Plate, starts their turn in it? No save. No attack roll. That epic hero is going to take 4-16 damage from these whirling daggers. Even a level 20 hero, adorned in Full Plate, with Heavy Armor Mastery will still take at least 1-13 HP of damage! So what is happening here? Is this nonsensical fiction? No. Because this fully plate clad, otherworldy skilled, mythological hero doesn't even have to get nicked to lose 1-13 HP. That can trivially be them spending their prowess gas tank to stay in the fight. They're more tired, less lucky, less capable of deploying the apex processing skills a martial artist must deploy to come out on top. Whatever. And this is totally cool. Totally legitimate take. 4e D&D combat is wildly different from Torchbearer Kill Conflicts or Dogs in the VIneyard "Escalate to Guns" Conflicts. The latter two are extremely visceral experiences with some engaging tactical overhead. They're also over much, much more quickly than 4e combats (I ran 2 * campaigns 1-30 and 3 more campaigns whose levels totaled about another 40...so about 100 levels worth of 4e GMing). My group of 3 PCs + 1 GM (me) was extremely quick in our processing/managing of a 4e combat and we used an eggshell timer so even Level +5 Encounter Budget ("deadly") fights averaged only 35 minutes-ish. But that is about 3 x as long as a TB or Dogs conflict. And I enjoy Cortex+ Conflicts and Dread resolution and PBtA resolution and FitD resolution and Sorcerer resolution and Shadows of Yesterday resolution and My Life With Master resolution and Everway resolution and Moldvay Basic and RC D&D resolution. And plenty of others, all with profoundly divergent system architecture, too many to enumerate. And I enjoy 5e's combat minigame and 5e social-combat-as-Pictionary/Wheel of Fortune that is its Social Interaction conflict mechanics. There are all kinds of ways to skin a TTRPG cat. But every_single_one of them relies upon obviously game constructs meant to facilitate play of a game. The problem comes when someone tries to make a claim that their autobiographical cognitive orientation toward system is a fundamental truism of reality...an objective, verifiable fault of a game engine (rather than, at least in no small part, an autobiographical fact about them)- [B]see Lyxen "Sorry, once more, its purely gamist." [/B] My ability to toggle when I would run 4e and then run Torchbearer and then run Apocalypse World and then run a Moldvay Basic dungeon crawl in the span of 1 week back in 2014 (all massively divergent systems) isn't a superpower. But I can toggle naturally or...where I've had to...I've conscientiously worked to develop my ability to toggle. And plenty of others can do the same and have done the same. That is empirical evidence that these extremely divergent systems are not exclusively responsible for my personal cognitive state nor your inability to toggle cognitively when thinking about them or playing them (either innately or develop it). There is all 3 of system + a biological footprint + a level of ownership by the user. It becomes especially problematic when they forgive their favored systems of the same "indiscretions" that they hold other systems to account for. D&D's history is utterly riddled with gamist artifacts that couldn't be further away from process simulation (hence why so many fled to BRP and Rolemaster and the like early on) which get looked past or apologized for when its expedient for partisanship/factionalism but hammered on relentlessly when its expedient for partisanship/factionalism in the opposite direction. "I can't easily get my brain around this game but I can get my brain around this other game so screw it I'm going to play the 2nd one" is a totally legit opinion about any game whether its 4e D&D or Dogs in the Vineyard or Everway or Ars Magica or even Moldvay Basic with all of its extreme gamist trappings. But "this game is uniquely and objectively filled with purely gamist mechanics and I have no ownership over my response to it" is not. [/QUOTE]
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