Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8620543" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Okay, here you're just wrong. 5e requires you to roll saves individually as well! If you're ignoring the rules to institute your preference to average, that's not unique to 5e -- you can do this for 4e if you wanted as well. The claim that 5e just allows you to do whatever is false -- it does not. There's no rules text saying saving throws are optional. You're relying on the omnipresent ability to ignore rules as you want, and saying that 5e allows this while 4e does not, but you can ignore rules whenever you want. 5e is not special in this regard.</p><p></p><p>And I can use the VTT for 4e. These arguments are not actually ones that land. Claiming games are faster because of automation tools that you only allow for one side is a weird flex. Also, your "not using the grid" is facetious -- you're using a map and space and grids are just simplifications here. It's trivial to do the same with 4e, even with pushes and pulls because you can either use the same kind of general eyeballing or you can use the measurement tools for actual distances. VTT is a complete red herring.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I suppose that if you decide to ignore rules for 5e and enforce them for 4e or if you use automation tools for 5e and forbid them for 4e or if you just do both of these at the same time, your 5e example is faster. But, and this is important, it's not because 5e is faster but because you've chosen to ignore rules and automate one-sidedly. </p><p></p><p>To you, maybe, but that's not normative. That your particular version of mental workspace doesn't accommodate this is, as previously noted, only an autobiographical tidbit -- it's not a normative statement about the system.</p><p></p><p>And we can see that here, because you've required bringing in a different workspace to defend your points -- you had to move the goalposts to attempt to preserve your argument. We were talking about fireballed orcs, but you have to shift to non-fireballed orcs to make your point -- which changes the scope of the discussion. You've shifted to talking about how 5e orcs are NOT like minions when your original point was that 5e did faster minion-style fights because fireballs always worked. No one is saying 5e orcs, with non-1 starting hp, aren't different from minions -- this has been the argument all along. You're were just here claiming that this very fact doesn't even matter for running large horde style encounters because fireballs are even more effective. But, that depends very much on the luck of the dice which is exactly what it depends on in 4e. If we now need to consider that follow-up attacks might not kill remaining orcs after a 5e fireball but don't really care about the 4e fireball, you've just undermined the entire thrust of your argument because you're saying it will take more effort and time to resolve the 5e cases than the 4e ones. But you've attempted to shift your argument from "it takes less time in 5e" to "it's breaking my personal suspension of disbelief" as if these arguments are interchangeable whenever you need to maintain the point that 4e is just bad, mmkay.</p><p></p><p>Oh. Well, in 4e, a wizard of sufficiently high level won't ever be facing vanilla orc minions, so this is entirely moot -- you cannot compare. If you do make this encounter in 4e, you're doing very odd things and the orcs won't even be able to hurt the PCs. For example, the Orc Drudge, a level 4 minion, is only a viable opponent up through 9th level, according to 4e. So we won't ever see 100+ Drudges going against a PC of sufficiently high level to compare to a 5e PC capable of upcasting fireball. THAT 4e PC is facing larger, more dangerous threats in the world, not hordes of low level orcs. This is a fundamental difference in how 4e structures the fictional space compared to 5e. Any claims of high level 5e PCs facing CR 1/2 orcs has no applicable parallel in 4e. The very construction of horde encounters is on different types of genre emulation and fictional structures.</p><p></p><p>Oh, yes, "but they said it first." Even if your assertion is correct, which I highly doubt it was anything like this, this doesn't mean it's free game to fire back by just trashing other games and expect to be absolved of having that pointed out.</p><p></p><p>No. You're trying to say that someone said something mean, so that means you get to say mean things, too. The point I was making is that if you're going to try and justify the mean things you say with reasons, you should really actually have those reasons, otherwise it's makes you look like you aren't really understanding the nature of the difference and are just enjoying saying mean things. And, again, this is assuming you're correct in your formulation of what was said about 5e, which I strongly doubt is accurate at all.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I don't care if you hate 4e. I don't care if you blatantly say so, so long as it's not turned into edition warring. I'm mostly interested in good arguments. So if you're going to say that 4e is objectively bad because of X, bring your A game because I'm going to hold that statement to the fire. You saying you really don't like 4e? Go ahead.</p><p></p><p>Yep -- dangerous, but if you're actually capable I should be easy to dispatch. And yet....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8620543, member: 16814"] Okay, here you're just wrong. 5e requires you to roll saves individually as well! If you're ignoring the rules to institute your preference to average, that's not unique to 5e -- you can do this for 4e if you wanted as well. The claim that 5e just allows you to do whatever is false -- it does not. There's no rules text saying saving throws are optional. You're relying on the omnipresent ability to ignore rules as you want, and saying that 5e allows this while 4e does not, but you can ignore rules whenever you want. 5e is not special in this regard. And I can use the VTT for 4e. These arguments are not actually ones that land. Claiming games are faster because of automation tools that you only allow for one side is a weird flex. Also, your "not using the grid" is facetious -- you're using a map and space and grids are just simplifications here. It's trivial to do the same with 4e, even with pushes and pulls because you can either use the same kind of general eyeballing or you can use the measurement tools for actual distances. VTT is a complete red herring. Yes, I suppose that if you decide to ignore rules for 5e and enforce them for 4e or if you use automation tools for 5e and forbid them for 4e or if you just do both of these at the same time, your 5e example is faster. But, and this is important, it's not because 5e is faster but because you've chosen to ignore rules and automate one-sidedly. To you, maybe, but that's not normative. That your particular version of mental workspace doesn't accommodate this is, as previously noted, only an autobiographical tidbit -- it's not a normative statement about the system. And we can see that here, because you've required bringing in a different workspace to defend your points -- you had to move the goalposts to attempt to preserve your argument. We were talking about fireballed orcs, but you have to shift to non-fireballed orcs to make your point -- which changes the scope of the discussion. You've shifted to talking about how 5e orcs are NOT like minions when your original point was that 5e did faster minion-style fights because fireballs always worked. No one is saying 5e orcs, with non-1 starting hp, aren't different from minions -- this has been the argument all along. You're were just here claiming that this very fact doesn't even matter for running large horde style encounters because fireballs are even more effective. But, that depends very much on the luck of the dice which is exactly what it depends on in 4e. If we now need to consider that follow-up attacks might not kill remaining orcs after a 5e fireball but don't really care about the 4e fireball, you've just undermined the entire thrust of your argument because you're saying it will take more effort and time to resolve the 5e cases than the 4e ones. But you've attempted to shift your argument from "it takes less time in 5e" to "it's breaking my personal suspension of disbelief" as if these arguments are interchangeable whenever you need to maintain the point that 4e is just bad, mmkay. Oh. Well, in 4e, a wizard of sufficiently high level won't ever be facing vanilla orc minions, so this is entirely moot -- you cannot compare. If you do make this encounter in 4e, you're doing very odd things and the orcs won't even be able to hurt the PCs. For example, the Orc Drudge, a level 4 minion, is only a viable opponent up through 9th level, according to 4e. So we won't ever see 100+ Drudges going against a PC of sufficiently high level to compare to a 5e PC capable of upcasting fireball. THAT 4e PC is facing larger, more dangerous threats in the world, not hordes of low level orcs. This is a fundamental difference in how 4e structures the fictional space compared to 5e. Any claims of high level 5e PCs facing CR 1/2 orcs has no applicable parallel in 4e. The very construction of horde encounters is on different types of genre emulation and fictional structures. Oh, yes, "but they said it first." Even if your assertion is correct, which I highly doubt it was anything like this, this doesn't mean it's free game to fire back by just trashing other games and expect to be absolved of having that pointed out. No. You're trying to say that someone said something mean, so that means you get to say mean things, too. The point I was making is that if you're going to try and justify the mean things you say with reasons, you should really actually have those reasons, otherwise it's makes you look like you aren't really understanding the nature of the difference and are just enjoying saying mean things. And, again, this is assuming you're correct in your formulation of what was said about 5e, which I strongly doubt is accurate at all. Personally, I don't care if you hate 4e. I don't care if you blatantly say so, so long as it's not turned into edition warring. I'm mostly interested in good arguments. So if you're going to say that 4e is objectively bad because of X, bring your A game because I'm going to hold that statement to the fire. You saying you really don't like 4e? Go ahead. Yep -- dangerous, but if you're actually capable I should be easy to dispatch. And yet.... [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?
Top