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5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8620662" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Okay, that's a bad take. The section is talking about using dice in places where it's up to the GM how to resolve an issue -- it's not a blanket statement. It's specifically looking at those places where things are not defined and the GM is using the normal loop to determine things. Combat has specific rules, and that counters the general advice here (specific beats general).</p><p></p><p>The second reason this is a bad take is because this is something you could and can always do in any game. You can always choose to ignore the rules, or supplant them with something else. I have no idea where the specious argument that this is unique to D&D started, but it really can't die soon enough.</p><p></p><p>So, on two counts your argument here that 5e is somehow special in this regard fails.</p><p></p><p>I have read them. Apparently you seem to have missed the surrounding rules, otherwise you'd also have to claim that rolling for everything all the time is also mandated by 5e, and that rolling most times but not always is also mandated alongside ignoring the rules. You cannot select one of the paths and declare it the controlling rule, outside of the fact that the scope of those discussions is narrow and do not implicate clearly stated specific rules. You actually do have to reach for rule 0, here, or you're arguing contradictions -- you're claiming to be able to state which sentences in the books are real rules and which are not (because there are three paths presented equally and you're saying only one matters).</p><p></p><p>You do not have to use a grid in 4e, just like you don't have to in 5e.</p><p></p><p>Again, only in the sense that you have the power to declare what core rules are and discard immediate contradictions to that declaration. Another bit of special pleading.</p><p></p><p>No, because I get very similar things from 4e, and even manage in games that are even less about fictional cause and effect. You're putting forth your personal imagination hangups as if they are normative. They aren't, trivially proven, because I do not posses those same hangups. Mine are completely different.</p><p></p><p>No, your claim was that 5e handled 100 orcs more quickly than 4e. We can all scroll up to see where you made this claim. You've now shifted to a "breaks my ability to imagine it" to defend "handles faster." Not at all the same argument.</p><p></p><p>Ah, they aren't a thing because you dislike that thing, regardless of anything else. Once again you present an autobiography of preferences as if they're actually normative. And doing so while agreeing with what I said but responding as if you're disagreeing. </p><p></p><p>There's no first point above. There are many points, and I have no idea where you think you should start numbering them. However, since I've addressed everything up until this point, it's fairly moot which you mean -- it doesn't actually address the point I was making here which was that you shifted what you were arguing about to preserve the defense of your claim 4e minions are just bad. You presented a case, that case was challenged, and you shifted cases while pretending it was the one you were arguing all along.</p><p></p><p>It can statistically wipe out all the minions. You mean to say it's very unlikely to do so. Well, so is the 5e fireball. Whether or not this is silly is, again, autobiographical about your thinking. The 4e "firecube" can also wipe out all the orcs or leave some wounded and easy to finish off. Narrative is flavor here, not required. You still have to hit the orcs in both cases and do damage sufficient to remove all hp. </p><p></p><p>Unable to simulate Minas Tirith? That's not at all true, I can run that scenario in 4e quite well. You keep making sweeping statements that aren't at all true when it's pretty clear what you mean is "I wouldn't use it for such because I have preferences otherwise." This isn't an indictment of the system, it's just more of your autobiography.</p><p></p><p>As for 5e being more open ended, I can't parse what context you mean this. In terms of fiction allowed? Nope, there's no story that can be told in 5e that can't be told in 4e. In terms of system math? Nope -- bounded accuracy is arguably tighter than 4e's math, which was really just a slight codification of 3e's. In terms of... I don't know what you think this means. I'm very certain you can't find a designer quote that actually makes this case in any way how you seem to intend to be using it -- that 5e is a more capable system.</p><p></p><p>Only if you decide to make Boromir X level and then use the wrong kind of orc minion. By the by, Boromir wasn't killed by orcs, but Uruk-Hai, which were decidedly more dangerous than orcs. So maybe I'd be using the level 9 orc minion template to match Boromir's low tier II level.</p><p></p><p>Why would you say this? It seems to have completely missed the point and responded by expressing an opinion based entirely on missing the point. There are other orc minions, I was pointing out that you wouldn't be fighting the lowest of the low at higher level because they are not an interesting challenge. The heroes of LotR could have been killed by any given orc they faced (unlikely at that might have been) and treated them as if they were always dangerous, but they killed them in droves. Even a level 20 fighter needs two hits, on average, with a longsword to kill the average orc (9.5 average damage from longsword, maybe 11.5 with fighting style, 14.5 with a +3 magic weapon). Is this the better option? A 20th level fighter in 4e is murdering orcs much more effectively -- one of the basic fighter at-wills kills two orc minions per hit (provided they're hordish). </p><p></p><p>The point is that neither of these systems is best. They are different. They will model a thing in different ways. So far, you've managed to show this, but have failed to show any real benefit of one over the other.</p><p></p><p>+/- 5 levels, usually, not same level. 5e does a similar thing via bounded accuracy, they just made the math so flat that everything fits in just about the same bubble as +/- 5 levels in 4e.</p><p></p><p>As far as situations in the game, do you make encounters with 29,833 Ancient Red Dragons against 1st level PCs in 5e and expect the PCs to be able to battle through? No? Is it because 5e doesn't accommodate that situation very well? The answer to these rhetoricals is no, of course not, this is silly. But it does show that there are conceptual spaces that work in 5e and ones that do not. 5e doesn't just handle everything, it handles what it handles. That this aligns with your preferences is just autobiographical again -- you keep telling us about yourself and mistaking it for objective statements about the games. 4e has a slightly different conceptual space. Some things work better in 4e than in 5e, other things do not. Because they are different games. However, all of your attempts are pretty hollow to showcase these differences because you're affording 5e great latitude (including adding automation as a feature of 5e while denying it elsewhere -- glad to see you dropped that) but holding 4e to bad expectations. I say bad because they're not at all what that game even tells you it's made for but rather some random bit you've invented and added all kinds of non-present restrictions just to try and make 4e look bad.</p><p></p><p>I'm not at all sure why you think this can't play out in 4e. This is exactly what minions allowed for in 4e, as well as elites and solos. You're trying to assert that there's a requirement for exactly the same math in 4e, but 4e had tons of variations available at a single CR level, plus the ability to easily move +/- 5 levels, and more with consideration. The reason that 4e has the +/- 5 level thing wasn't because it required only same levels stuff, but because it's math made lower or higher CRs mathematically untenable. A CR 1 against a 10th level party couldn't even land a blow using the math of the system. So, to make this work, 4e added variability to monster types so that the math could work well but you still got the variability in challenge and need for tactics. I mean, claiming that 4e wasn't an extremely detailed tactical game -- far more so than 5e -- is just weird! As is claiming that tactics didn't have a large impact on play. If you're up against level +5 anything, your tactics are going to be critical. If you're up against over-budget anything, lower or higher, your tactics are going to be critical to survival.</p><p></p><p>But, that said, if you didn't limit yourself prior to 4e, then you shouldn't have felt required to limit yourself in 4e, because what happens outside the bands 4e was explicit about existed in earlier editions in an unspoken way. 3.x was particularly bad about this, were the math was such that if you didn't stay close in CR to the guidelines, creatures rapidly because totally overwhelming or utterly useless. As I said above, 4e's math system was pretty much just a clearer version of what 3e did. In the AD&Ds, this also happened, but not as much, because AC and THAC0 were at least bounded, but the magic system made all of it mostly irrelevant pretty quickly anyway. If you went against magic, level parity was critically important.</p><p></p><p>Um, no. Let me try and make this simple. You are making statements about 4e that it cannot do certain things and is a poor game because of this. Other people are telling you that they absolutely did those things and that they worked out great. You maintain that they are wrong about what they actually did. That is badwrongfunning.</p><p></p><p>Ah. I'm disagreeing with you because I like a sense of humor. I am defective, so that explains my inability to understand why 4e is bad at thing but 5e is great at thing. Another strong argument!</p><p></p><p>No problems at all with anything you said here. The reasons you give around it, trying to show how this is objectively true because of how the rules work, are just bad, though. Stick to "I don't like it."</p><p></p><p>You keep making normative statements, and defending that you intend to make normative statements, and then pivot. It's very hard to follow what kind of argument you make, as you move blindingly fast between your motte and your bailey.</p><p></p><p>For reference, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy" target="_blank">motte and bailey arguing</a>.</p><p></p><p><Checks position, hasn't moved.></p><p>Sure. If you say so.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8620662, member: 16814"] Okay, that's a bad take. The section is talking about using dice in places where it's up to the GM how to resolve an issue -- it's not a blanket statement. It's specifically looking at those places where things are not defined and the GM is using the normal loop to determine things. Combat has specific rules, and that counters the general advice here (specific beats general). The second reason this is a bad take is because this is something you could and can always do in any game. You can always choose to ignore the rules, or supplant them with something else. I have no idea where the specious argument that this is unique to D&D started, but it really can't die soon enough. So, on two counts your argument here that 5e is somehow special in this regard fails. I have read them. Apparently you seem to have missed the surrounding rules, otherwise you'd also have to claim that rolling for everything all the time is also mandated by 5e, and that rolling most times but not always is also mandated alongside ignoring the rules. You cannot select one of the paths and declare it the controlling rule, outside of the fact that the scope of those discussions is narrow and do not implicate clearly stated specific rules. You actually do have to reach for rule 0, here, or you're arguing contradictions -- you're claiming to be able to state which sentences in the books are real rules and which are not (because there are three paths presented equally and you're saying only one matters). You do not have to use a grid in 4e, just like you don't have to in 5e. Again, only in the sense that you have the power to declare what core rules are and discard immediate contradictions to that declaration. Another bit of special pleading. No, because I get very similar things from 4e, and even manage in games that are even less about fictional cause and effect. You're putting forth your personal imagination hangups as if they are normative. They aren't, trivially proven, because I do not posses those same hangups. Mine are completely different. No, your claim was that 5e handled 100 orcs more quickly than 4e. We can all scroll up to see where you made this claim. You've now shifted to a "breaks my ability to imagine it" to defend "handles faster." Not at all the same argument. Ah, they aren't a thing because you dislike that thing, regardless of anything else. Once again you present an autobiography of preferences as if they're actually normative. And doing so while agreeing with what I said but responding as if you're disagreeing. There's no first point above. There are many points, and I have no idea where you think you should start numbering them. However, since I've addressed everything up until this point, it's fairly moot which you mean -- it doesn't actually address the point I was making here which was that you shifted what you were arguing about to preserve the defense of your claim 4e minions are just bad. You presented a case, that case was challenged, and you shifted cases while pretending it was the one you were arguing all along. It can statistically wipe out all the minions. You mean to say it's very unlikely to do so. Well, so is the 5e fireball. Whether or not this is silly is, again, autobiographical about your thinking. The 4e "firecube" can also wipe out all the orcs or leave some wounded and easy to finish off. Narrative is flavor here, not required. You still have to hit the orcs in both cases and do damage sufficient to remove all hp. Unable to simulate Minas Tirith? That's not at all true, I can run that scenario in 4e quite well. You keep making sweeping statements that aren't at all true when it's pretty clear what you mean is "I wouldn't use it for such because I have preferences otherwise." This isn't an indictment of the system, it's just more of your autobiography. As for 5e being more open ended, I can't parse what context you mean this. In terms of fiction allowed? Nope, there's no story that can be told in 5e that can't be told in 4e. In terms of system math? Nope -- bounded accuracy is arguably tighter than 4e's math, which was really just a slight codification of 3e's. In terms of... I don't know what you think this means. I'm very certain you can't find a designer quote that actually makes this case in any way how you seem to intend to be using it -- that 5e is a more capable system. Only if you decide to make Boromir X level and then use the wrong kind of orc minion. By the by, Boromir wasn't killed by orcs, but Uruk-Hai, which were decidedly more dangerous than orcs. So maybe I'd be using the level 9 orc minion template to match Boromir's low tier II level. Why would you say this? It seems to have completely missed the point and responded by expressing an opinion based entirely on missing the point. There are other orc minions, I was pointing out that you wouldn't be fighting the lowest of the low at higher level because they are not an interesting challenge. The heroes of LotR could have been killed by any given orc they faced (unlikely at that might have been) and treated them as if they were always dangerous, but they killed them in droves. Even a level 20 fighter needs two hits, on average, with a longsword to kill the average orc (9.5 average damage from longsword, maybe 11.5 with fighting style, 14.5 with a +3 magic weapon). Is this the better option? A 20th level fighter in 4e is murdering orcs much more effectively -- one of the basic fighter at-wills kills two orc minions per hit (provided they're hordish). The point is that neither of these systems is best. They are different. They will model a thing in different ways. So far, you've managed to show this, but have failed to show any real benefit of one over the other. +/- 5 levels, usually, not same level. 5e does a similar thing via bounded accuracy, they just made the math so flat that everything fits in just about the same bubble as +/- 5 levels in 4e. As far as situations in the game, do you make encounters with 29,833 Ancient Red Dragons against 1st level PCs in 5e and expect the PCs to be able to battle through? No? Is it because 5e doesn't accommodate that situation very well? The answer to these rhetoricals is no, of course not, this is silly. But it does show that there are conceptual spaces that work in 5e and ones that do not. 5e doesn't just handle everything, it handles what it handles. That this aligns with your preferences is just autobiographical again -- you keep telling us about yourself and mistaking it for objective statements about the games. 4e has a slightly different conceptual space. Some things work better in 4e than in 5e, other things do not. Because they are different games. However, all of your attempts are pretty hollow to showcase these differences because you're affording 5e great latitude (including adding automation as a feature of 5e while denying it elsewhere -- glad to see you dropped that) but holding 4e to bad expectations. I say bad because they're not at all what that game even tells you it's made for but rather some random bit you've invented and added all kinds of non-present restrictions just to try and make 4e look bad. I'm not at all sure why you think this can't play out in 4e. This is exactly what minions allowed for in 4e, as well as elites and solos. You're trying to assert that there's a requirement for exactly the same math in 4e, but 4e had tons of variations available at a single CR level, plus the ability to easily move +/- 5 levels, and more with consideration. The reason that 4e has the +/- 5 level thing wasn't because it required only same levels stuff, but because it's math made lower or higher CRs mathematically untenable. A CR 1 against a 10th level party couldn't even land a blow using the math of the system. So, to make this work, 4e added variability to monster types so that the math could work well but you still got the variability in challenge and need for tactics. I mean, claiming that 4e wasn't an extremely detailed tactical game -- far more so than 5e -- is just weird! As is claiming that tactics didn't have a large impact on play. If you're up against level +5 anything, your tactics are going to be critical. If you're up against over-budget anything, lower or higher, your tactics are going to be critical to survival. But, that said, if you didn't limit yourself prior to 4e, then you shouldn't have felt required to limit yourself in 4e, because what happens outside the bands 4e was explicit about existed in earlier editions in an unspoken way. 3.x was particularly bad about this, were the math was such that if you didn't stay close in CR to the guidelines, creatures rapidly because totally overwhelming or utterly useless. As I said above, 4e's math system was pretty much just a clearer version of what 3e did. In the AD&Ds, this also happened, but not as much, because AC and THAC0 were at least bounded, but the magic system made all of it mostly irrelevant pretty quickly anyway. If you went against magic, level parity was critically important. Um, no. Let me try and make this simple. You are making statements about 4e that it cannot do certain things and is a poor game because of this. Other people are telling you that they absolutely did those things and that they worked out great. You maintain that they are wrong about what they actually did. That is badwrongfunning. Ah. I'm disagreeing with you because I like a sense of humor. I am defective, so that explains my inability to understand why 4e is bad at thing but 5e is great at thing. Another strong argument! No problems at all with anything you said here. The reasons you give around it, trying to show how this is objectively true because of how the rules work, are just bad, though. Stick to "I don't like it." You keep making normative statements, and defending that you intend to make normative statements, and then pivot. It's very hard to follow what kind of argument you make, as you move blindingly fast between your motte and your bailey. For reference, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy']motte and bailey arguing[/URL]. <Checks position, hasn't moved.> Sure. If you say so. [/QUOTE]
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