Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5E imbalance: Don't want to play it
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 6261491" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>I got into a “boring fighter” debate elsewhere recently and began to wonder how many options the wizard really has, and what happens at higher levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p>At first level a wizard will know four spells, can prepare 2, and cast 2. For space this is written 4<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/2.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":2:" title="Two :2:" data-shortname=":2:" />2 (a 2<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/1.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":1:" title="One :1:" data-shortname=":1:" />1 ratio).</p><p>At fifth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, and 2x 3rd-level spells known. They can prepare 6 spells cast 4/3/2. Or 12<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/6.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":6:" title="Six :6:" data-shortname=":6:" />9, reducible to 4<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/2.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":2:" title="Two :2:" data-shortname=":2:" />3 highlighting that the ratio of spells known to castable hasn’t changed much. </p><p>At tenth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, and 5th-level spells known. They can prepare 11 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2. Or 22:11:15, which isn’t reducible to whole numbers but becomes 2.2:1.1:1.5 so, again, the ratio of spells known to prepared to castable hasn’t really changed. </p><p>At fifteenth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, 6th-level, 7th-level, and 2x 8th-level spells known. They can prepare 16 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1. Or reducible to 2<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/1.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":1:" title="One :1:" data-shortname=":1:" />1.125. </p><p>And lastly at twentieth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, 6th-level, 7th-level, 4x 8th-level, and 6x 9th-level spells known. They can prepare 21 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1. Or 40:21:19, or reducible to 2:1.05:0.95. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So while wizards get new spells every level the number of spells they know compared to the number of spells they can prepare & cast is always *really* close to two-to-one. So wizards really only have two completely different sets of options. </p><p>This is a nice set of options but somewhat limited as you can only ever prepare half the powers you know, compared to having fewer options but always having them available. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Really though, having played a couple spellcasters, you have fewer options than the above implies. While you know twice as many spells as you can cast, you typically have a couple fallbacks that are always prepared. Signature spells or the baseline combat spells. Fireball for example. So you have more spells competing for fewer slots. This is balanced by having situational spells: options that are handy to have but don’t regularly come up. </p><p>Again, this can be balanced with fewer powers that are more consistently useful. </p><p></p><p></p><p>And one of the nice things about 5e casters is low level spells do not increase in potency as the caster levels, so they have a limited number of spells that function at maximum efficiency. If the level 15 mage casts a fireball as an 8th-level spell they’ve used up all their 8th-level spells for the day and future fireballs will only be as potent as a 7th-level or 6th-level spell. A level 20 mage can has four rounds of high level spell combat before they’re barely as effective as a level 10 mage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 6261491, member: 37579"] I got into a “boring fighter” debate elsewhere recently and began to wonder how many options the wizard really has, and what happens at higher levels. At first level a wizard will know four spells, can prepare 2, and cast 2. For space this is written 4:2:2 (a 2:1:1 ratio). At fifth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, and 2x 3rd-level spells known. They can prepare 6 spells cast 4/3/2. Or 12:6:9, reducible to 4:2:3 highlighting that the ratio of spells known to castable hasn’t changed much. At tenth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, and 5th-level spells known. They can prepare 11 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2. Or 22:11:15, which isn’t reducible to whole numbers but becomes 2.2:1.1:1.5 so, again, the ratio of spells known to prepared to castable hasn’t really changed. At fifteenth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, 6th-level, 7th-level, and 2x 8th-level spells known. They can prepare 16 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1. Or reducible to 2:1:1.125. And lastly at twentieth level this becomes 6x 1st-level, 4x 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, 6th-level, 7th-level, 4x 8th-level, and 6x 9th-level spells known. They can prepare 21 spells casting 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1. Or 40:21:19, or reducible to 2:1.05:0.95. So while wizards get new spells every level the number of spells they know compared to the number of spells they can prepare & cast is always *really* close to two-to-one. So wizards really only have two completely different sets of options. This is a nice set of options but somewhat limited as you can only ever prepare half the powers you know, compared to having fewer options but always having them available. Really though, having played a couple spellcasters, you have fewer options than the above implies. While you know twice as many spells as you can cast, you typically have a couple fallbacks that are always prepared. Signature spells or the baseline combat spells. Fireball for example. So you have more spells competing for fewer slots. This is balanced by having situational spells: options that are handy to have but don’t regularly come up. Again, this can be balanced with fewer powers that are more consistently useful. And one of the nice things about 5e casters is low level spells do not increase in potency as the caster levels, so they have a limited number of spells that function at maximum efficiency. If the level 15 mage casts a fireball as an 8th-level spell they’ve used up all their 8th-level spells for the day and future fireballs will only be as potent as a 7th-level or 6th-level spell. A level 20 mage can has four rounds of high level spell combat before they’re barely as effective as a level 10 mage. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5E imbalance: Don't want to play it
Top