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<blockquote data-quote="smbakeresq" data-source="post: 7489589" data-attributes="member: 28301">I get what you are saying.&nbsp; However, the way I see passive perception used (always on, so the minute you open the door everyone gets a check, invisibility and silence are no exception as they claim they see something amiss, like cobwebs as described above) very few creatures will ever be able to beat the groups passive perception checks.&nbsp; Monsters are not set up that way.&nbsp; A group will always have at least one PC with 15 passive perception at level 1, that's wisdom 16 with proficiency in Perception.&nbsp; A variant human with observant will have passive perception 20, at level 1, that PC at level 1 will always notice an invisible stalker using a passive stealth check (20), clearly that's not right.&nbsp; When you look through monsters you realize almost none of them will be able to escape the PC notice.&nbsp; By using it that way you will get into a situation wherein the DM will tell PCs its not a passive check situation and then they feel railroaded (happens all the time, see it in games in shops.) They are &quot;surprised&quot; that they got surprised in some way even if the opponent is highly magical fantasy creature that relies on stealth exclusively.&nbsp; I see the response of just telling the players its a set encounter and thus a railroad job, that's not true but that doesn't help either.&nbsp; I can see that by the responses here some would act that way.There are some situations that passive perception isn't the be all to end all, and the players just get surprised because the enemy has intelligence and wisdom and special abilities and it fits a narrative to get the drop on them.&nbsp; As above, what do you do with an invisible creature in a loud room; would you let a player state &quot;I am listening for differential sounds that are out of place or dust and cobwebs flowing in unusual patterns to see what's in the room so I deserve a passive or active perception check to detect if anything is invisible and silent?&quot;&nbsp; I have seen that happen at tables in the game stores also, people arguing that the monster should get one free attack in before it gives away its position.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="smbakeresq, post: 7489589, member: 28301"] I get what you are saying. However, the way I see passive perception used (always on, so the minute you open the door everyone gets a check, invisibility and silence are no exception as they claim they see something amiss, like cobwebs as described above) very few creatures will ever be able to beat the groups passive perception checks. Monsters are not set up that way. A group will always have at least one PC with 15 passive perception at level 1, that's wisdom 16 with proficiency in Perception. A variant human with observant will have passive perception 20, at level 1, that PC at level 1 will always notice an invisible stalker using a passive stealth check (20), clearly that's not right. When you look through monsters you realize almost none of them will be able to escape the PC notice. By using it that way you will get into a situation wherein the DM will tell PCs its not a passive check situation and then they feel railroaded (happens all the time, see it in games in shops.) They are "surprised" that they got surprised in some way even if the opponent is highly magical fantasy creature that relies on stealth exclusively. I see the response of just telling the players its a set encounter and thus a railroad job, that's not true but that doesn't help either. I can see that by the responses here some would act that way. There are some situations that passive perception isn't the be all to end all, and the players just get surprised because the enemy has intelligence and wisdom and special abilities and it fits a narrative to get the drop on them. As above, what do you do with an invisible creature in a loud room; would you let a player state "I am listening for differential sounds that are out of place or dust and cobwebs flowing in unusual patterns to see what's in the room so I deserve a passive or active perception check to detect if anything is invisible and silent?" I have seen that happen at tables in the game stores also, people arguing that the monster should get one free attack in before it gives away its position. [/QUOTE]

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