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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7794892" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Stealthy is subjective.  There are plenty of creatures in the MM who are moderately stealthy around +4 bonus and some extremely stealthy like pixies (+8) or invisible stalkers (+10).  The problem is you are treating outliers with expertise and high wisdom as a standard that doesn't exist.  The context of a description as "lurky" or "stealthy" doesn't imply "against rogues with expertise in perception".  The standard is d20 no bonuses and +5 is moderately good while +10 is great.  Refer to page 238 of the DMG.  That's why we don't normally see DCs higher than 20.  The expectation has always been either high proficiency or high score for moderate ability and both for hard.  Beyond that is exceptionally hard or nearly impossible.  It seems like you have a perception issue just because high numbers are possible with a couple of classes at extreme levels.  A +4 intellect devourer is moderately stealthy.Ankhegs were a previously mentioned example and I demonstrated it why that bonus doesn't matter.  A person can place any two groups together and the result is the same -- high perception only impacts acting on the first round of combat or not (and varies among the groups as well), and checks are made by each PC so not everyone succeeds in the check.  The only real difference is they might see each other from farther away or the party might possibly surprise the NPC's.This gets into one of the serious flaws of your premise on using stealth against high level rogues (because it's not parties, it's a class or two).A +17 stealth character, monster, or NPC cannot sneak up to a -2 (8 passive) perception fighter.  The fighter does this by looking down a well lit hallway on watch.  It's not possible to hide if the hider can be seen.  Hiding requirements prevents it.  Preventing stealth is as easy as destroying any place to hide most of the time, or keeping to clear open areas.  The conditional requirement is more restrictive than the actual skill bonus differences.I found your response rather hostile, tbh.  I was offering help because it appeared to be in perspective issue.  It still does.  It looks like you are setting the bar with expertise and high ability scores, which is impractical when the goal was to be inclusive of all classes.  Being inclusive to all classes means keeping the bar where they can reasonably achieve success too.  Bigger numbers because your opinion is that it's required to be stealthy doesn't make the rules or devs incorrect.  I'll leave it at that.</blockquote>

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