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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8996103" data-attributes="member: 20323">Yeah, that estimate of topping out matches the numbers I shared for a <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/project-monsters-by-level-not-cr.697192/#post-8993810" target="_blank">hypothetical Rogue (Thief)</a>. Below 11th level, the Rogue moves from CR 1 to 4, then from 11th+ it moves from CR 5 to 9.[SPOILER="CR maths (spoiler)"]11th Rogue = CR 5hp 79, AC 18 = Def. CR 3DPR 30.5, atk +9 = Off. CR 6(6+3) / 2 = 4.513th Rogue = CR 6hp 91, AC 18 = Def. CR 4DPR 34, atk +10 = CR 7(4+7) / 2 = 5.515th Rogue = CR 7hp 103, AC 18+2 (saves) = Def. CR 6DPR 37.5, atk +10 = Off. CR 7(6+7) / 2 = 6.517th Rogue = CR 8hp 115, AC 18+2 (saves) = Def. CR 6DPR 54.5, atk +11 = Off. CR 10(6+10)/2 = 819th Rogue = CR 9hp 127, AC 19+2 (saves) = Def. CR 7DPR 59, atk +11 = Off. CR 11(7+11)/2 = 9[/SPOILER]There are good reasons to take the DMG monster building CR guidelines with a heavy grain of salt, not the least being the recent admittance during the D&D Creator Summit that those DMG guidelines do not reflect their internal monster building tools.Perhaps, at least for now, a better source to use is Paul Hughes <a href="https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7338" target="_blank">Monster Manual on a Business Card</a> which extrapolates monster guidelines based on reverse engineering the Monster Manual monsters. It eschews the DMG completely.<img src="https://www.blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bc1.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /><img src="https://www.blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/bc2.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />However, translating Paul Hughes' guidelines to PC stats is tricky cause the numbers are "softer." For example, taking that 11th level Rogue (Thief) and evaluating it with Paul Hughes' CR guidelines, I get something like...11th Roguehp 79 = CR 4 (15*CR + 15)AC 18 = CR 15 (13 + 1/3 CR) ...or CR 6 if we allow for the +3 AC guideline he givesDPR 30.5 = CR 5 (5*CR + 5)atk +9 = CR 10 (4+1/2 CR) ...or CR 6 if we allow for the +/-2 Attack guideline he givesSo, with this method, the Rogue's hit points and damage look about like CR 4 or 5. However, the attack bonus and AC are, at best, consistent with a CR 6. I guess I'd call that a CR 5... which actually is pretty accurate to the DMG method in this case.</blockquote>

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