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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 9001133" data-attributes="member: 72555">So a 14 constitution Rogue has 16*2 + 16*5 + 3 = 115 HP.&nbsp; 109 is low for a 16th level Rogue, especially one with no feats.I'll assume Dual Wielding feat with two rapiers and 20 dex.&nbsp; Studded is 18 AC.So its attack routine is 1d8+5 1d8 (14), and has 2 chances to land 28 damage sneak attack.&nbsp; If we ignore the two chances to land the sneak attak we get 42 DPR, not 37.5, and that is a low estimate (as the 2 chances are significant).&nbsp; Anyhow, +10 to hit.Defensive roll halves the damage of 1 hit/turn.&nbsp; That is going to be worth at least +25% HP on the conservative side.CR 6+2 for accuracy is CR 8 offensiveCR 5+1.5 for AC is CR 6.5 defensiveoverall CR is 7.25and this is on a subclass-less rogue.&nbsp; While you did say Thief, you then assumed none of the abilities had any impact on combat.All of fast hands, use magic device, and advantage on stealth can be significant combat abilities.&nbsp; So a &quot;real CR&quot; that is 1 point higher isn't all that unreasonable.Assassin has 10.5 of sneak attack, 13 of weapon damage, then 24.5*2 poison damage.&nbsp; But the poison damage requires that you hit with a weapon attack, and has a 2nd chance to reduce it with a con save.&nbsp; So we should discount it.&nbsp; If we expect a 40% save chance, the proper discount is 20%.The sneak attack damage should be boosted (as the assassin has 2 attempts).&nbsp; The ambush ability matters as well.&nbsp; We'll do without boosting from these two for now (we also neglected the sneak attack boost on the thief).DPR is 62.7, not 76.&nbsp; Attack is +6, not +10.Offensive CR of 10, but -0.5 from inaccuracy.Defensive CR of 1, +1 from AC.&nbsp; Evasion isn't large enough for us to worry about.(9.5+2)/2 is 5.75.&nbsp; It has an actual CR of 8, probably because we neglected the Assassinate ability; what DM doesn't have the assassin surprise the first round?If we add that in, its damage is basically doubled round 1.&nbsp; Using the 3 round rule, this boosts its DPR by 33% to 83.4, or CR 13.&nbsp; It has an accuracy boost round 1, but not round 2/3: call that +1 to hit.&nbsp; So 12.5 offensive CR.(12.5+2)/2 is 7.25 CR.&nbsp; The MM gives it an 8, which is close.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 9001133, member: 72555"] So a 14 constitution Rogue has 16*2 + 16*5 + 3 = 115 HP. 109 is low for a 16th level Rogue, especially one with no feats. I'll assume Dual Wielding feat with two rapiers and 20 dex. Studded is 18 AC. So its attack routine is 1d8+5 1d8 (14), and has 2 chances to land 28 damage sneak attack. If we ignore the two chances to land the sneak attak we get 42 DPR, not 37.5, and that is a low estimate (as the 2 chances are significant). Anyhow, +10 to hit. Defensive roll halves the damage of 1 hit/turn. That is going to be worth at least +25% HP on the conservative side. CR 6+2 for accuracy is CR 8 offensive CR 5+1.5 for AC is CR 6.5 defensive overall CR is 7.25 and this is on a subclass-less rogue. While you did say Thief, you then assumed none of the abilities had any impact on combat. All of fast hands, use magic device, and advantage on stealth can be significant combat abilities. So a "real CR" that is 1 point higher isn't all that unreasonable. Assassin has 10.5 of sneak attack, 13 of weapon damage, then 24.5*2 poison damage. But the poison damage requires that you hit with a weapon attack, and has a 2nd chance to reduce it with a con save. So we should discount it. If we expect a 40% save chance, the proper discount is 20%. The sneak attack damage should be boosted (as the assassin has 2 attempts). The ambush ability matters as well. We'll do without boosting from these two for now (we also neglected the sneak attack boost on the thief). DPR is 62.7, not 76. Attack is +6, not +10. Offensive CR of 10, but -0.5 from inaccuracy. Defensive CR of 1, +1 from AC. Evasion isn't large enough for us to worry about. (9.5+2)/2 is 5.75. It has an actual CR of 8, probably because we neglected the Assassinate ability; what DM [b]doesn't[/b] have the assassin surprise the first round? If we add that in, its damage is basically doubled round 1. Using the 3 round rule, this boosts its DPR by 33% to 83.4, or CR 13. It has an accuracy boost round 1, but not round 2/3: call that +1 to hit. So 12.5 offensive CR. (12.5+2)/2 is 7.25 CR. The MM gives it an 8, which is close. [/QUOTE]

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