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<blockquote data-quote="Khisanth the Ancient" data-source="post: 7161931" data-attributes="member: 11368">I just bought Out of the Abyss and noticed something: The demon lords have lair actions listed, and their lairs are described as their Abyssal homes.So Demogorgon/Orcus in the Abyss are &quot;only&quot; CR 26 - those aren't weakened Material Plane versions. (Demogorgon as fought in the adventure is weakened, but those effects are described in the adventure text, not the main statblocks.)I am thinking therefore that for 5E we need a strong 'motivation' for going beyond 20th level. IE given that taking on Orcus in Thanatos is a plausible campaign-ending fight for a standard-rules 20th level party... what do epic characters do?I'm thinking maybe start with Dark Sun and Mystara, where the epic and immortal characters are most completely integrated into the setting. PCs being able (in theory anyway - the 2E mechanics for becoming Advanced Beings were pretty absurd) to become Advanced Beings and Immortals were built into those settings, it wasn't just an add-on. As opposed to, say, FR. FR is pretty high magic but Elminster and the Simbul etc. can still be fundamentally who they are without being more than 20th level.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Khisanth the Ancient, post: 7161931, member: 11368"] I just bought Out of the Abyss and noticed something: The demon lords have lair actions listed, and their lairs are described as their Abyssal homes. So Demogorgon/Orcus [I]in the Abyss[/I] are "only" CR 26 - those aren't weakened Material Plane versions. (Demogorgon as fought in the adventure is weakened, but those effects are described in the adventure text, not the main statblocks.) I am thinking therefore that for 5E we need a strong 'motivation' for going beyond 20th level. IE given that taking on Orcus in Thanatos is a plausible campaign-ending fight for a standard-rules 20th level party... what do epic characters do? I'm thinking maybe start with Dark Sun and Mystara, where the epic and immortal characters are most completely integrated into the setting. PCs being able (in theory anyway - the 2E mechanics for becoming Advanced Beings were pretty absurd) to become Advanced Beings and Immortals were built into those settings, it wasn't just an add-on. As opposed to, say, FR. FR is pretty high magic but Elminster and the Simbul etc. can still be fundamentally who they are without being more than 20th level. [/QUOTE]

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