Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e/Next Cosmology
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 5981566" data-attributes="member: 32536"><p>Well, yes, actually. Exactly in that sense, though the closer analogy would be someone saying "D&D is not D&D if it has Dragonborn in it". This is a backhanded insult of 4E we're talking about here. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>And, yeah, I'd have a complaint if someone walked up to a game I was running that didn't include elves, drow, and orcs (especially drow!) and said it wasn't D&D if I didn't include them in the campaign setting. The should be in the books as options because they have fans, but it would still be D&D if they get kicked out.</p><p></p><p>I think you're being a little too charitable to the author's intent, here. Or, at the very least, you are missing a very clear reading of the lines that is anything but "not putting down 4e or saying that the 4e planes are bad". Whether or not that was the exact intent of those lines is unclear, but you need to put a lot of words in the author's mouth to get "this is about realizing and addressing that not everyone was on board with the 4e design" out of that particular line in the article.</p><p></p><p>The issue here is that I saw 4E as an advancement and evolution of the older Great Wheel cosmology. It wasn't a replacement, since it still integrated pretty much every bad idea that the older cosmologies had other than the strict ordering of planes, and pretty much every single location from the Great Wheel is easily placed into it (and is detailed in the Manual of the Planes). The 4E cosmology basically is the Great Wheel in every way except the physical (metaphysical?) structure.</p><p></p><p>If even a minor iterative change to the system (and yes, I'd say that 3E -> 4E is exactly that) is considered to be excessive or "rewriting from scratch", then the system is doomed to stagnate.</p><p></p><p>I'm a big fan of the incorporating cosmology into the world approach myself. It is much more fun for gods and demons to inhabit the world itself, rather than be isolated off in weird alternate realms of existence that can only be accessed by certain high-level spells. If nothing else, I prefer planes that overlay over the physical world (like the Feywild or Shadowfell) over infinitely-sized theme worlds like most Outer Planes tend to be.</p><p></p><p>Certainly, each setting really should have its own cosmology. I think it was a big mistake of older versions of the game to even establish a singular cosmology. The Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, and others really <em>need</em> their own cosmology, if they even need a cosmology at all.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure if you <em>strictly</em> need a world to reference to talk about a cosmology, though... Certainly, you shouldn't create them separately and then force them together, but if you create them separately and then interact with them separately, it still kinda works. The Great Wheel is <em>terrible</em> as a core cosmology that is equally applied to every setting, but as a setting in its own right it isn't bad. The goal really should be to make the Great Wheel suitable for level 1 play, rather than make it the endgame for every other setting, if that makes sense.</p><p></p><p>That's no different what I do. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TwinBahamut, post: 5981566, member: 32536"] Well, yes, actually. Exactly in that sense, though the closer analogy would be someone saying "D&D is not D&D if it has Dragonborn in it". This is a backhanded insult of 4E we're talking about here. :) And, yeah, I'd have a complaint if someone walked up to a game I was running that didn't include elves, drow, and orcs (especially drow!) and said it wasn't D&D if I didn't include them in the campaign setting. The should be in the books as options because they have fans, but it would still be D&D if they get kicked out. I think you're being a little too charitable to the author's intent, here. Or, at the very least, you are missing a very clear reading of the lines that is anything but "not putting down 4e or saying that the 4e planes are bad". Whether or not that was the exact intent of those lines is unclear, but you need to put a lot of words in the author's mouth to get "this is about realizing and addressing that not everyone was on board with the 4e design" out of that particular line in the article. The issue here is that I saw 4E as an advancement and evolution of the older Great Wheel cosmology. It wasn't a replacement, since it still integrated pretty much every bad idea that the older cosmologies had other than the strict ordering of planes, and pretty much every single location from the Great Wheel is easily placed into it (and is detailed in the Manual of the Planes). The 4E cosmology basically is the Great Wheel in every way except the physical (metaphysical?) structure. If even a minor iterative change to the system (and yes, I'd say that 3E -> 4E is exactly that) is considered to be excessive or "rewriting from scratch", then the system is doomed to stagnate. I'm a big fan of the incorporating cosmology into the world approach myself. It is much more fun for gods and demons to inhabit the world itself, rather than be isolated off in weird alternate realms of existence that can only be accessed by certain high-level spells. If nothing else, I prefer planes that overlay over the physical world (like the Feywild or Shadowfell) over infinitely-sized theme worlds like most Outer Planes tend to be. Certainly, each setting really should have its own cosmology. I think it was a big mistake of older versions of the game to even establish a singular cosmology. The Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, and others really [i]need[/i] their own cosmology, if they even need a cosmology at all. I'm not sure if you [i]strictly[/i] need a world to reference to talk about a cosmology, though... Certainly, you shouldn't create them separately and then force them together, but if you create them separately and then interact with them separately, it still kinda works. The Great Wheel is [i]terrible[/i] as a core cosmology that is equally applied to every setting, but as a setting in its own right it isn't bad. The goal really should be to make the Great Wheel suitable for level 1 play, rather than make it the endgame for every other setting, if that makes sense. That's no different what I do. :) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
5e/Next Cosmology
Top