Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
5E solve me this: 3Es and 4Es biggest problem
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Windjammer" data-source="post: 5783106" data-attributes="member: 60075"><p>Earlier today I came across an amazingly insightful <a href="http://rpggeek.com/article/8256830#8256830" target="_blank">comment on Monte Cook's latest column</a>. I'll reproduce it in full:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with this, because this week as I'm starting up a new 4E campaign the usual stuff ensues. Endless bickering over which stuff to declare legit, what's off bounds, what doesn't fit this time, and so on. </p><p></p><p>As a GM of 20 years experience I continue to be amazed by players who think they can predict what a campaign is going to be about, or even worse, what it's ought to be about. That the things bickered about end up being trivial bonuses to attacks and skills goes without saying. There's never any inherent interest in the character beyond his abilities.</p><p></p><p>It's not just the grand level publishing strategy that's the problem, and which this poster alludes to. It's the very specific handling of content that WotC deliberately failed to deliver in 4 sub-editions now.</p><p></p><p>In 3rd edition we had the polymorph debacle. Over night, any and every stat block in any monster book ever published became a player asset. This wasn't simply a bane for GMs, it was a bane for D&D authors: they could no longer write up crazy monsters which GMs could use however they wanted to see fit, but now <strong>had to carefully balance GM material against player (ab)use.</strong></p><p></p><p>Even the most die-hard fan of 3rd edition, and certainly the hardest critics of that edition, will agree that the rules and errata mess the polymorph subsystem generated was one of the worst failings of that game.</p><p></p><p>And it wasn't a wailing because it produced over powered characters, or because (which is also true) the rules text never attained a level of clarity that ended the bickering on the table. No, the reason why this was such an immense failure was because it failed to separate DM material from player material.</p><p></p><p>And then 4E came along, and blew this error to the worst of all proportions. It dreamt up a Character Builder into which every rules element ever published for the system would be pooled together, and all within a second's reach of the player.</p><p></p><p>'But hold on,' you might say (because you are a reasonable, patient person), 'why should players not exercise discretion?'.</p><p></p><p>Indeed, why not? Easy. Because the Character Builder references the source of each mechanical element but not its purpose.</p><p></p><p>Examples from this week:</p><p></p><p><em>Player: why is this alchemical component off limits? It appeared in Dungeon magazine, no less!</em></p><p><em>DM: Because, if you had read the actual article it appeared in, you'd know that it explicitly said that these alchemical experiments are solely known to an NPC, and for the sole use of the DM.</em></p><p></p><p>Or again,</p><p></p><p><em>Player: why is this power off limits? </em></p><p><em>DM: Because we're playing in Eberron, and that power appears in an article called 'Artificers of the Realms'?</em></p><p></p><p>And so on and so on and so on and so on for a thousand new items. The magic item rarity system, however staggeringly incompetent one may find its execution (I do), managed to address a real issue: WotC authors could no longer write up mysterious magic items, because whoops-de-doo they'd end up in the player's finger tips before GMs even had a chance to make room for them in their campaigns. Here, read <a href="http://community.wizards.com/wotc_peters/blog/2009/12/08/magic_items_the_items_we_cant_publish" target="_blank">this article</a> on that very issue, by a WotC staffer no less, and ask yourself: how does this differ from 3.x polymorph in the slightest? Why would a company want to repeat this mistake?</p><p></p><p>I'm curious. Because, WotC, whatever you do next, <strong>please end this mess</strong>. End the endless bickering over what rules are used at which table. Don't dial this complexity meter and 'players can choose their own customization' meter to 11 <em>again</em>. Don't repeat that mistake again.</p><p></p><p>What we want is a stable, errata- and 'update'-free, rules platform on which rotating GMs can run stable campaigns. <strong>Make the <em>campaign </em>the central rules element in 5E, not the PC. Give us an edition where D&D is about campaigns which PCs can play in - and end this nonsense of special snowflake PCs which DMs have to design campaigns around.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Windjammer, post: 5783106, member: 60075"] Earlier today I came across an amazingly insightful [URL="http://rpggeek.com/article/8256830#8256830"]comment on Monte Cook's latest column[/URL]. I'll reproduce it in full: I agree with this, because this week as I'm starting up a new 4E campaign the usual stuff ensues. Endless bickering over which stuff to declare legit, what's off bounds, what doesn't fit this time, and so on. As a GM of 20 years experience I continue to be amazed by players who think they can predict what a campaign is going to be about, or even worse, what it's ought to be about. That the things bickered about end up being trivial bonuses to attacks and skills goes without saying. There's never any inherent interest in the character beyond his abilities. It's not just the grand level publishing strategy that's the problem, and which this poster alludes to. It's the very specific handling of content that WotC deliberately failed to deliver in 4 sub-editions now. In 3rd edition we had the polymorph debacle. Over night, any and every stat block in any monster book ever published became a player asset. This wasn't simply a bane for GMs, it was a bane for D&D authors: they could no longer write up crazy monsters which GMs could use however they wanted to see fit, but now [B]had to carefully balance GM material against player (ab)use.[/B] Even the most die-hard fan of 3rd edition, and certainly the hardest critics of that edition, will agree that the rules and errata mess the polymorph subsystem generated was one of the worst failings of that game. And it wasn't a wailing because it produced over powered characters, or because (which is also true) the rules text never attained a level of clarity that ended the bickering on the table. No, the reason why this was such an immense failure was because it failed to separate DM material from player material. And then 4E came along, and blew this error to the worst of all proportions. It dreamt up a Character Builder into which every rules element ever published for the system would be pooled together, and all within a second's reach of the player. 'But hold on,' you might say (because you are a reasonable, patient person), 'why should players not exercise discretion?'. Indeed, why not? Easy. Because the Character Builder references the source of each mechanical element but not its purpose. Examples from this week: [I]Player: why is this alchemical component off limits? It appeared in Dungeon magazine, no less! DM: Because, if you had read the actual article it appeared in, you'd know that it explicitly said that these alchemical experiments are solely known to an NPC, and for the sole use of the DM.[/I] Or again, [I]Player: why is this power off limits? DM: Because we're playing in Eberron, and that power appears in an article called 'Artificers of the Realms'?[/I] And so on and so on and so on and so on for a thousand new items. The magic item rarity system, however staggeringly incompetent one may find its execution (I do), managed to address a real issue: WotC authors could no longer write up mysterious magic items, because whoops-de-doo they'd end up in the player's finger tips before GMs even had a chance to make room for them in their campaigns. Here, read [url=http://community.wizards.com/wotc_peters/blog/2009/12/08/magic_items_the_items_we_cant_publish]this article[/url] on that very issue, by a WotC staffer no less, and ask yourself: how does this differ from 3.x polymorph in the slightest? Why would a company want to repeat this mistake? I'm curious. Because, WotC, whatever you do next, [B]please end this mess[/B]. End the endless bickering over what rules are used at which table. Don't dial this complexity meter and 'players can choose their own customization' meter to 11 [I]again[/I]. Don't repeat that mistake again. What we want is a stable, errata- and 'update'-free, rules platform on which rotating GMs can run stable campaigns. [B]Make the [I]campaign [/I]the central rules element in 5E, not the PC. Give us an edition where D&D is about campaigns which PCs can play in - and end this nonsense of special snowflake PCs which DMs have to design campaigns around. [/B] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
5E solve me this: 3Es and 4Es biggest problem
Top