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5e Sorcerer versus Wizard, which is better?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7806554" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Lol, that's kind of funny. I was thinking through slot / point trade options that I didn't included in the post and that was part of one of them that I missed on my lack of proof read.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a pretty typical list and I was a bit torn between hypnotic pattern and fireball, tbh, but fireball is more universal in the end.</p><p></p><p>What I don't like about your list is too many concentration spells. Alter self, suggestion, levitate, hypnotic pattern, and haste all take up the concentration slot. In the cases of alter self and suggestions the durations also interfere with ritual casting opportunities. They are all good spells but they can interfere with one another.</p><p></p><p>I would also point out the sorcerer points can create spell slots to match the arcane recovery without the need to take a short rest. 5 sorc point creates either a 1st and 2nd level slot, or a 3rd level slot. It's the less likely use of points over meta-magic but the option exists.</p><p></p><p>That's what I was thinking when I posted the 6 sorc points because the sorcerer argument against arcane recovery is spending the 5 points on a 3rd level spell slot without a rest, popping off a 1st level slot for a sorc point and that would match the slot the wizard spends on armor. That would leave the sorcerer with the same spells cast as the wizard and still have 1 point for a twinned cantrip. It was something I chose to leave out at the time.</p><p></p><p>The sorcerer can cast more spells per day than the wizard can even with arcane recovery by swapping the high level slots for more low level slots, but that's used about as often as action surge for something other than attacking, IME. It's also an argument destroyed by spell mastery later, lol, so you might see why I chose not to push that argument too far. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That and they are decent spells, lol. Having less spells from which to choose is definitely a drawback but that doesn't make the spells on the list sorcerers can choose poor by comparison. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can't fault either as a choice. The challenge I found with wizards is in knowing that I would be better off with one over the other in the first place. Sometimes the information is there, sometimes it's not. In the end, however, it doesn't turn out crucial. I can cast fireball, or sleep, or suggestion instead; or spam firebolts. Options the wizard has didn't take away having options for the sorc.</p><p></p><p>I want to be clear here. Spell prep and more spells known is an advantage. I don't believe it's as big of an advantage as it appears based on posts I see sometimes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's also nice to have a force damage back up. In the end it's still another damage, and I went with a different cantrip for alternative damage that includes forced movement. The bonus cantrip over wizards at first level is something I find as under-rated. It doesn't matter in higher levels but it's nice at low levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The rogue can climb over the wall with a climber kit, with advantage via the help action. Or a team can group check it. It's still a nice spell, so imagine if you could twin it. ;-)</p><p></p><p>The alternatives from my list would be to use suggestion (also viable control and can be twinned) or outright killing. Death is still the best condition to apply. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nice to fit in and again not crucial. I have to live with disengage and move in combat, but I can apply haste to help if needed. Out of combat exploration it's true I have to still climb or what not that everyone else in the party has to do, but that's not something that really turns into an issue.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some things he does have to do the non-magical way. That's a trade-off with which I can live for the option of busting in with a quickened fireball and twinned firebolt.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've suggested the sorcerer can take ritual caster. I don't actually do it myself. Usually someone else in the part has it and it's a duplication of abilities, and the "play with it during rests / downtime" option exists.</p><p></p><p>I would point out that if the rest are rituals, then the spell swapping stopped being a thing. A wizard cannot swap hypnotic pattern out for fireball if he's filled his spell book with rituals instead of fireball. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't disagree here. I think wizards get more out of their subclasses than sorcerers do. It's part of the trade off. Sorcerers can get flying for free later through subclasses which changes a lot of the exploration arguments above and I'm still a fan of draconic resilience giving more hit points and armor class without spending a slot on mage armor, something I noticed you didn't do in you wizard example that I would have done instead of taking magic missile.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7806554, member: 6750235"] Lol, that's kind of funny. I was thinking through slot / point trade options that I didn't included in the post and that was part of one of them that I missed on my lack of proof read. It's a pretty typical list and I was a bit torn between hypnotic pattern and fireball, tbh, but fireball is more universal in the end. What I don't like about your list is too many concentration spells. Alter self, suggestion, levitate, hypnotic pattern, and haste all take up the concentration slot. In the cases of alter self and suggestions the durations also interfere with ritual casting opportunities. They are all good spells but they can interfere with one another. I would also point out the sorcerer points can create spell slots to match the arcane recovery without the need to take a short rest. 5 sorc point creates either a 1st and 2nd level slot, or a 3rd level slot. It's the less likely use of points over meta-magic but the option exists. That's what I was thinking when I posted the 6 sorc points because the sorcerer argument against arcane recovery is spending the 5 points on a 3rd level spell slot without a rest, popping off a 1st level slot for a sorc point and that would match the slot the wizard spends on armor. That would leave the sorcerer with the same spells cast as the wizard and still have 1 point for a twinned cantrip. It was something I chose to leave out at the time. The sorcerer can cast more spells per day than the wizard can even with arcane recovery by swapping the high level slots for more low level slots, but that's used about as often as action surge for something other than attacking, IME. It's also an argument destroyed by spell mastery later, lol, so you might see why I chose not to push that argument too far. ;-) That and they are decent spells, lol. Having less spells from which to choose is definitely a drawback but that doesn't make the spells on the list sorcerers can choose poor by comparison. ;-) I can't fault either as a choice. The challenge I found with wizards is in knowing that I would be better off with one over the other in the first place. Sometimes the information is there, sometimes it's not. In the end, however, it doesn't turn out crucial. I can cast fireball, or sleep, or suggestion instead; or spam firebolts. Options the wizard has didn't take away having options for the sorc. I want to be clear here. Spell prep and more spells known is an advantage. I don't believe it's as big of an advantage as it appears based on posts I see sometimes. It's also nice to have a force damage back up. In the end it's still another damage, and I went with a different cantrip for alternative damage that includes forced movement. The bonus cantrip over wizards at first level is something I find as under-rated. It doesn't matter in higher levels but it's nice at low levels. The rogue can climb over the wall with a climber kit, with advantage via the help action. Or a team can group check it. It's still a nice spell, so imagine if you could twin it. ;-) The alternatives from my list would be to use suggestion (also viable control and can be twinned) or outright killing. Death is still the best condition to apply. ;-) Nice to fit in and again not crucial. I have to live with disengage and move in combat, but I can apply haste to help if needed. Out of combat exploration it's true I have to still climb or what not that everyone else in the party has to do, but that's not something that really turns into an issue. Some things he does have to do the non-magical way. That's a trade-off with which I can live for the option of busting in with a quickened fireball and twinned firebolt. I've suggested the sorcerer can take ritual caster. I don't actually do it myself. Usually someone else in the part has it and it's a duplication of abilities, and the "play with it during rests / downtime" option exists. I would point out that if the rest are rituals, then the spell swapping stopped being a thing. A wizard cannot swap hypnotic pattern out for fireball if he's filled his spell book with rituals instead of fireball. ;-) I don't disagree here. I think wizards get more out of their subclasses than sorcerers do. It's part of the trade off. Sorcerers can get flying for free later through subclasses which changes a lot of the exploration arguments above and I'm still a fan of draconic resilience giving more hit points and armor class without spending a slot on mage armor, something I noticed you didn't do in you wizard example that I would have done instead of taking magic missile. [/QUOTE]
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