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5e Sorcerer versus Wizard, which is better?
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7806930" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>I have more non-concentration spells than your sorcerer. I'll be fine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I would love to point out that when you do that then you have given up your only advantage over the wizard. On days where you turn sorcery points into spell slots instead of using metamagic - the wizard is flat out better on those days.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This whole paragraph makes no sense. I don't have mage armor. You don't have a subclass picked. What the heck are you talking about?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes and that obviously a terrible use of the mechanic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you misunderstood me. There's nothing wrong with your chosen spells. I was explaining why I didn't deviate much from your list and why I choose the additional spells I chose.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All I was saying was that if you took (the better) hypnotic pattern instead of fireball (good all around) then you had no direct damage spell. That's the limitation I was talking about.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Looks to me like it was.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's funny to me that you tout the benefits of extra cantrips but when it comes to extra spells prepared/known you say it's not that big a deal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe. You can't twin it though, you don't have the spell. Remember, we are doing a concrete example for that reason.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Suggestion for control only works on things that understand you. A lot of enemies won't understand you. The ones that do, the wizard has suggestion. The ones that don't can be levitated.</p><p></p><p>Twin is good with suggestion though.</p><p></p><p>You also mentioned death is the best but for a lot of the brute style enemies you don't have 2nd or 1st level slots that really help kill it faster.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nice to fit in and not crucial defines pretty much every spell. It's universally true no matter which spell or caster we are talking about. It's a true statement that conveys no new, interesting or useful information.</p><p></p><p>Moving 30 ft away from something means it can still attack you if desired. That's a risk. Misty step in combat fully alievates that risk.</p><p></p><p>Being able to cast a spell and get around out of combat obstacles is the strongest out of combat feature of any caster.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not about doing things the non-magical way. Sometimes you don't have a good non-magical path to get where you want to be when you need to be there without magic.</p><p></p><p>I think you saying the following is quite illustrative: "That's a trade-off with which I can live for the option of busting in with a quickened fireball and twinned firebolt." You care more about raw damage and combat power, which is fine. The sorcerer does that a bit better. The wizard is no slouch though and gets a lot more out of combat options. What the wizard lacks in raw power he makes up for in being more likely to have the perfect spell for his given combat situation. See my comments on levitate vs suggestion. Hypnotic pattern vs fireball etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1. I don't need fireball</p><p>2. There's a few spells that have a highly specific purpose whose purpose may be forshadowed or rested for after finding the need for the spell. Examples: Tongues, invisibility, counterspell, see invisibility, locate object, knock, arcane lock. I personally hold general purpose rituals in higher esteem than being able to swap for these spells. So I wouldn't make the spell swap argument. As I said before, I'm very much into concrete examples instead of this inconsistent discussion where we pretend all options for our favored class are equally available when they are not.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But if you bring draconic sorcerer in, don't I get to bring in bladesinger? Doesn't he have equal or better defensive options? If we are talking level 14+, wizard subclasses get some amazing stuff by those levels as well.</p><p></p><p>Magic Missile helps make up the damage gap when you twin haste. It also is what set up hypnotic pattern to be the better spell for my wizard. It was needed IMO. I could have dropped levitate or misty step for absorb elements or mage armor. Heck, if I wanted to be more defensive I could have taken them both. I don't think a more defensive wizard beats a more offensive sorcerer though.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7806930, member: 6795602"] I have more non-concentration spells than your sorcerer. I'll be fine. And I would love to point out that when you do that then you have given up your only advantage over the wizard. On days where you turn sorcery points into spell slots instead of using metamagic - the wizard is flat out better on those days. This whole paragraph makes no sense. I don't have mage armor. You don't have a subclass picked. What the heck are you talking about? Yes and that obviously a terrible use of the mechanic. I think you misunderstood me. There's nothing wrong with your chosen spells. I was explaining why I didn't deviate much from your list and why I choose the additional spells I chose. All I was saying was that if you took (the better) hypnotic pattern instead of fireball (good all around) then you had no direct damage spell. That's the limitation I was talking about. Looks to me like it was. It's funny to me that you tout the benefits of extra cantrips but when it comes to extra spells prepared/known you say it's not that big a deal. Maybe. You can't twin it though, you don't have the spell. Remember, we are doing a concrete example for that reason. Suggestion for control only works on things that understand you. A lot of enemies won't understand you. The ones that do, the wizard has suggestion. The ones that don't can be levitated. Twin is good with suggestion though. You also mentioned death is the best but for a lot of the brute style enemies you don't have 2nd or 1st level slots that really help kill it faster. Nice to fit in and not crucial defines pretty much every spell. It's universally true no matter which spell or caster we are talking about. It's a true statement that conveys no new, interesting or useful information. Moving 30 ft away from something means it can still attack you if desired. That's a risk. Misty step in combat fully alievates that risk. Being able to cast a spell and get around out of combat obstacles is the strongest out of combat feature of any caster. It's not about doing things the non-magical way. Sometimes you don't have a good non-magical path to get where you want to be when you need to be there without magic. I think you saying the following is quite illustrative: "That's a trade-off with which I can live for the option of busting in with a quickened fireball and twinned firebolt." You care more about raw damage and combat power, which is fine. The sorcerer does that a bit better. The wizard is no slouch though and gets a lot more out of combat options. What the wizard lacks in raw power he makes up for in being more likely to have the perfect spell for his given combat situation. See my comments on levitate vs suggestion. Hypnotic pattern vs fireball etc. 1. I don't need fireball 2. There's a few spells that have a highly specific purpose whose purpose may be forshadowed or rested for after finding the need for the spell. Examples: Tongues, invisibility, counterspell, see invisibility, locate object, knock, arcane lock. I personally hold general purpose rituals in higher esteem than being able to swap for these spells. So I wouldn't make the spell swap argument. As I said before, I'm very much into concrete examples instead of this inconsistent discussion where we pretend all options for our favored class are equally available when they are not. But if you bring draconic sorcerer in, don't I get to bring in bladesinger? Doesn't he have equal or better defensive options? If we are talking level 14+, wizard subclasses get some amazing stuff by those levels as well. Magic Missile helps make up the damage gap when you twin haste. It also is what set up hypnotic pattern to be the better spell for my wizard. It was needed IMO. I could have dropped levitate or misty step for absorb elements or mage armor. Heck, if I wanted to be more defensive I could have taken them both. I don't think a more defensive wizard beats a more offensive sorcerer though. [/QUOTE]
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