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<blockquote data-quote="Benjamin Olson" data-source="post: 8035585" data-attributes="member: 6988941">&quot;The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.&quot;To me the first and last sentences here are not wholly dependent on the middle two. I don't think being surprised intrinsically has anything to do with hiding, it's just covered here as the most common scenario. Whatever the results of weighing of stealth, perception and/or lack there of, whether or not they are aware of each other's presence, it all comes down to not noticing a threat in whatever form that might take due to the totality of circumstances. It does not matter if someone notices something which is, in fact, a threat, it matters if they notice it as a threat.The surprised condition is there to model someone being unable to respond as quickly as a normal initiative roll might allow them to, whenever the totality of circumstances warrants their slow reaction. If an enemy is sufficiently convinced that I am not a threat then they are surprised when I strike whether they see me or not. Walking up to the guards as a heavily armed adventurer and making some good persuasion checks should not result in surprise if I attack unless they are truly terrible at their jobs, but bringing them a cask of ale and making friendly chit chat over drinks with them for an hour with all my weapons hidden probably should.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Benjamin Olson, post: 8035585, member: 6988941"] "The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter." To me the first and last sentences here are not wholly dependent on the middle two. I don't think being surprised intrinsically has anything to do with hiding, it's just covered here as the most common scenario. Whatever the results of weighing of stealth, perception and/or lack there of, whether or not they are aware of each other's presence, it all comes down to not noticing a threat in whatever form that might take due to the totality of circumstances. It does not matter if someone notices something which is, in fact, a threat, it matters if they notice it as a threat. The surprised condition is there to model someone being unable to respond as quickly as a normal initiative roll might allow them to, whenever the totality of circumstances warrants their slow reaction. If an enemy is sufficiently convinced that I am not a threat then they are surprised when I strike whether they see me or not. Walking up to the guards as a heavily armed adventurer and making some good persuasion checks should not result in surprise if I attack unless they are truly terrible at their jobs, but bringing them a cask of ale and making friendly chit chat over drinks with them for an hour with all my weapons hidden probably should. [/QUOTE]

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