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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jon Gilliam" data-source="post: 8035711" data-attributes="member: 6920404">It's not a confrontational setting - my group has been meeting for over 7 years, and I've DM'd off and on for over half that time.  But, we're re-examining how we've played in the past and trying to get a complete understanding of the rules as written.The document we're coming up with is a work in progress.  Here's what we have now for the procedure for the start of combat after incorporating our discussions to-date:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DM determines if it is possible for the party to hide for the start of combat : The DM determines the circumstances under which hiding is possible, taking into consideration the availability of cover in the combat zone, the state of awareness or alertness of opponents at the start of combat, light conditions, whether the party was already in plain view of their opponents, and anything else the DM considers relevant.  Either the entire party engaging in the first round of combat will be able to hide prior to combat or none of the party will be able to do so.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If hiding is possible, players decide pre-combat if their character will be hiding : When a combat is about to begin, if it will be possible for characters to hide the DM will ask the players which of them wants their character to be hidden at the start of combat, and any who do will make a Stealth check.  Note the all of the characters in the party have to be hidden prior to combat to have a chance to surprise any opponents, because otherwise the unhidden character will be noticed by all opponents as a threat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">DM determines who is surprised : The DM next determines who is surprised by comparing the Stealth checks of anyone who will be hiding with the passive Perception scores of all of the creatures on the opposing side (and vice versa).  Individual creatures on either or both sides may be surprised.  Any character or monster whose passive perception is less than the lowest Stealth of all opponents doesn't notice any threats, and is surprised at the start of the encounter.  Any character or monster who notices the presence of even one opponent (one threat) is not surprised.  Characters or creatures who are surprised can't move or take actions on the first turn of combat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DM asks for marching order and location preferences :  The DM reveals the combat zone map if the characters are not already located within it, asks the players what their marching order is, and asks what they would like their general starting location to be for the combat.  It does not matter whether that general location of preference is reachable in a round with the character's movement speed  or not.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The DM decides where characters are located : Taking into consideration marching order and the player's preference for their character's starting location, the DM will position the characters such that they are hidden from the opposing creatures with passive perceptions lower than their stealth rolls.   The path that a character took to get to that starting location is not part of the combat and is narrated by the DM to reflect which characters will be trying to hide.  Once a character reaches their starting position, they will always be hidden from the appropriate opponents as per their Stealth check.  If there is not sufficient cover represented on a map to reflect how they are hidden, that cover will be narrated by the DM as a "theater of the mind" addition to the map.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Characters hidden at their starting locations are as per the Hide action : Once combat commences, for characters whose players wanted them hidden at the start of combat, it is as if those characters have previously taken the Hide action with the same Stealth check as was made for surprise determination.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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