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5e Surprise and Hiding Rules Interpretation
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8037351" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>So, you don't notice a threat if you don't think the creature is threatening.</p><p></p><p>Or, to be very, very clear: there simply being non-hidden creatures near you <strong>doesn't make you immune to surprise</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Those non-hidden creatures can be your allies, neutral parties you don't think are going to be fighting you. If they are creatures you suspect are about to attack you, they do make you immune to surprise.</p><p></p><p>You have surprise backwards. Assassin's don't <strong>surprise</strong>, it is the <strong>other side that is surprised</strong>.</p><p></p><p>If they did not notice a threat, they are surprised.</p><p></p><p>So we have alice and bob, both assassins.</p><p></p><p>Alice is hiding, invisible. Bob is disguised as a member of the orchestra, and has Truesight up, so can see Alice. Bob's disguise is perfect, and Charlie has no idea that Bob is an assassin.</p><p></p><p>We have charlie, their victim. Alice starts combat.</p><p></p><p><strong>Is Charlie immune to surprise</strong>?</p><p></p><p>Bob is clearly not surprised. Bob can see Alice. Bob can see charlie.</p><p></p><p>Charlie cannot see Alice. Bob has successfully disguised himself, so does not appear to be a threat.</p><p></p><p>Does the fact that Bob is disguised suddenly prevent Charlie from being surprised? If Bob does nothing, can Charlie be surprised? If initiative goes Alice, Charlie, Bob, and Bob hasn't acted, is Charlie surprised on his turn? If Bob then acts, does Charlie retroactively get to act?</p><p></p><p>Does removing Bob suddenly make Charlie surprised?!</p><p></p><p>If Bob wins initiative, and attacks, does Charlie suddenly become not-surprised?</p><p></p><p><strong>Surprise is not something you do</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Surprise is something that happens to you.</p><p></p><p>If you notice a threat (a potentially hostile person) and are ready for combat, you aren't surprised. If you don't notice a threat, and combat starts, you are surprised.</p><p></p><p>The easiest way for someone to "not notice a threat" is for that threat to be hidden. But that isn't the only way.</p><p></p><p>The existence of a 5th column spy in the PC's party doesn't suddenly make them immune to surprise from ambusing enemies. And those ambushing enemies do not suddenly make the 5th column spy more surprising.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Bob, disguised as a member of the orchestra, is not a <strong>threat</strong> that Charlie <strong>notices</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Charlie notices Bob, as an orchestra player, but not that Bob is a threat.</p><p></p><p>So Bob's existence does not prevent Charlie from being surprised.</p><p></p><p>From this, combat starts with Charlie <strong>surprised</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Bob gets to roll initiative like everyone else, RAW. Combat has already started, so what Bob does does not change if Charlie is surprised.</p><p></p><p>To <strong>notice</strong> someone is not the same as <strong>notice a threat</strong>: the rules use different terms, and the word <strong>threat</strong> matters. You notice the other PCs, you notice the orchestra players. Noticing a threat means you have to both notice someone, and realize they are a threat.</p><p></p><p>A successful disguise (as something appropriate) or deception of peaceful intentions makes someone not a threat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8037351, member: 72555"] So, you don't notice a threat if you don't think the creature is threatening. Or, to be very, very clear: there simply being non-hidden creatures near you [B]doesn't make you immune to surprise[/B]. Those non-hidden creatures can be your allies, neutral parties you don't think are going to be fighting you. If they are creatures you suspect are about to attack you, they do make you immune to surprise. You have surprise backwards. Assassin's don't [B]surprise[/B], it is the [B]other side that is surprised[/B]. If they did not notice a threat, they are surprised. So we have alice and bob, both assassins. Alice is hiding, invisible. Bob is disguised as a member of the orchestra, and has Truesight up, so can see Alice. Bob's disguise is perfect, and Charlie has no idea that Bob is an assassin. We have charlie, their victim. Alice starts combat. [B]Is Charlie immune to surprise[/B]? Bob is clearly not surprised. Bob can see Alice. Bob can see charlie. Charlie cannot see Alice. Bob has successfully disguised himself, so does not appear to be a threat. Does the fact that Bob is disguised suddenly prevent Charlie from being surprised? If Bob does nothing, can Charlie be surprised? If initiative goes Alice, Charlie, Bob, and Bob hasn't acted, is Charlie surprised on his turn? If Bob then acts, does Charlie retroactively get to act? Does removing Bob suddenly make Charlie surprised?! If Bob wins initiative, and attacks, does Charlie suddenly become not-surprised? [B]Surprise is not something you do[/B]. Surprise is something that happens to you. If you notice a threat (a potentially hostile person) and are ready for combat, you aren't surprised. If you don't notice a threat, and combat starts, you are surprised. The easiest way for someone to "not notice a threat" is for that threat to be hidden. But that isn't the only way. The existence of a 5th column spy in the PC's party doesn't suddenly make them immune to surprise from ambusing enemies. And those ambushing enemies do not suddenly make the 5th column spy more surprising. Bob, disguised as a member of the orchestra, is not a [B]threat[/B] that Charlie [B]notices[/B]. Charlie notices Bob, as an orchestra player, but not that Bob is a threat. So Bob's existence does not prevent Charlie from being surprised. From this, combat starts with Charlie [B]surprised[/B]. Bob gets to roll initiative like everyone else, RAW. Combat has already started, so what Bob does does not change if Charlie is surprised. To [b]notice[/b] someone is not the same as [b]notice a threat[/b]: the rules use different terms, and the word [b]threat[/b] matters. You notice the other PCs, you notice the orchestra players. Noticing a threat means you have to both notice someone, and realize they are a threat. A successful disguise (as something appropriate) or deception of peaceful intentions makes someone not a threat. [/QUOTE]
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