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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8037398" data-attributes="member: 72555">There is nothing in the surprise rules that says it requires hiding.&nbsp; The rules give a way to be unnoticed, but never say &quot;this is the only way to be not noticed as a threat&quot;, which you seem to be reading into those rules.That isn't RAW, that is inventing a house rule.The rules clearly say &quot;notice a threat&quot;.&nbsp; Threat, not being a defined game term, falls back on the plain English meaning.A person standing next to you that looks like an orchestra member with no weapons neither hiding, nor are they a &quot;threat you noticed&quot;, in plain English.They did not say &quot;notice an opponent&quot;, and replacing one word with another is not reading the rules as written.How the DM adjudicates them pulling that off is not detailed in those rules right there.&nbsp; But there are plenty of rules on how disguise works in 5e.Is is good that you are now claiming that the word &quot;threat&quot; means &quot;opponent&quot;, because we can now be clear why you are misreading the rules as written....But to be clear, if Bob had zero plan to engage at that moment (he was going to attack in 1 minute when the clock strikes 12), didn't see Alice, and Alice attacked, would Charlie be surprised?&nbsp; What if he beat Alice's stealth check?If Bob saw Alice, but intended to keep his cover, would Charlie be surprised?If Bob changed his mind after combat began, does Charlie retroactively become unsurprised?You want to cover edge cases....My point is, the rules are really clear.&nbsp; If you notice a threat, you aren't surprised on the first turn of combat.&nbsp; If you don't notice a threat, you are surprised on the first turn of combat.If someone is hidden from you, you don't notice them.&nbsp; If you don't notice them, you don't know they are a threat.&nbsp; This is not the only way to not notice a threat; there are both disguise methods and deception methods, for example.&nbsp; They are covered in the rules for disguise and deception.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8037398, member: 72555"] There is nothing in the surprise rules that says it requires hiding. The rules give a way to be unnoticed, but never say "this is the only way to be not noticed as a threat", which you seem to be reading into those rules. That isn't RAW, that is inventing a house rule. The rules clearly say "notice a threat". Threat, not being a defined game term, falls back on the plain English meaning. A person standing next to you that looks like an orchestra member with no weapons neither hiding, nor are they a "threat you noticed", in plain English. They did not say "notice an opponent", and replacing one word with another is not reading the rules as written. [B]How[/B] the DM adjudicates them pulling that off is not detailed in [B]those rules[/B] right there. But there are plenty of rules on how disguise works in 5e. Is is good that you are now claiming that the word "threat" means "opponent", because we can now be clear why you are misreading the rules as written. ... But to be clear, if Bob had zero plan to engage at that moment (he was going to attack in 1 minute when the clock strikes 12), didn't see Alice, and Alice attacked, would Charlie be surprised? What if he beat Alice's stealth check? If Bob saw Alice, but intended to keep his cover, would Charlie be surprised? If Bob changed his mind after combat began, does Charlie retroactively become unsurprised? You want to cover edge cases. ... My point is, the rules are really clear. If you notice a threat, you aren't surprised on the first turn of combat. If you don't notice a threat, you are surprised on the first turn of combat. If someone is hidden from you, you don't notice them. If you don't notice them, you don't know they are a threat. This is not the only way to not notice a threat; there are both disguise methods and deception methods, for example. They are covered in the rules for disguise and deception. [/QUOTE]

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