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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8038741" data-attributes="member: 72555">Wow, you really don't like hiding, and are willing to twist wording to make it as useless as possible.&quot;If you make a hide check, you are covered by the unseen attackers rules&quot;.&quot;Hidden -- unseen and unheard&quot;The plain language again keeps on saying hidden is supposed to use the unseen attackers rules for the benefit you get from hiding.&nbsp; You can find ambiguity in any text, and your goal seems to be to restrict what &quot;hidden&quot; does as much as possible that is at all consistent with the text.You should simplify your rules at your table.&nbsp; They should be &quot;Do not try to use hide at my table.&quot;&nbsp; Would be less painful for players.There is literally no point in hiding; any circumstance where you hide, to get the benefit you must have been unseen and unheard, which would have granted you all of the benefits of hiding before you tried to hide, with the one exception of your restrictive interpretation of how surprise works (an unseen and unheard person doesn't surprise unless they are hidden).&nbsp; After that first round of combat, hiding does basically nothing.You nullified the &quot;on a successful hide check, you gain the benefits described under unseen and unheard&quot;, because you require both hiding and unseen and unheard to grant those benefits!&nbsp; The check did nothing.Which means the rule was pointless to start with.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8038741, member: 72555"] Wow, you really don't like hiding, and are willing to twist wording to make it as useless as possible. "If you make a hide check, you are covered by the unseen attackers rules". "Hidden -- unseen and unheard" The plain language again keeps on saying hidden is supposed to use the [B]unseen attackers rules[/B] for the benefit you get from hiding. You can find ambiguity in any text, and your goal seems to be to restrict what "hidden" does as much as possible that is at all consistent with the text. You should simplify your rules at your table. They should be "Do not try to use hide at my table." Would be less painful for players. There is literally no point in hiding; any circumstance where you hide, to get the benefit you must have been unseen and unheard, which would have granted you all of the benefits of hiding [b]before you tried to hide[/b], with the one exception of your restrictive interpretation of how surprise works (an unseen and unheard person doesn't surprise unless they are hidden). After that first round of combat, hiding does basically nothing. You nullified the "on a successful hide check, you gain the benefits described under unseen and unheard", because you require [b]both[/b] hiding [b]and[/b] unseen and unheard to grant those benefits! The check did nothing. Which means the rule was pointless to start with. [/QUOTE]

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