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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8040830" data-attributes="member: 16814">Ah, this appears to be due to how you play, not the rules.&nbsp; If you play such that a player can declare a deception check to do a thing, and allow that role, the problem isn't in how the surprise rules interact with this, its due to how you've chosen to adjudicate the initial declaration.&nbsp; The solution is to follow the play cycle on page 4 of the PHB, and then decide which of the three methods of dice usage you're using from the DMG.&nbsp; I recommend the middle path, btw.&nbsp; Further, if you use the NPC interaction rules (also in the DMG) you'd have a strong structure.&nbsp; This would solve this problem before you ever got to the surprise rules because the player would declare the intent and you, as GM, would determine if that was possible and had a significant cost for failure, and then ask for an appropriate ability check.&nbsp; If you think it's perfectly fine for a PC to meet hostile opponents (at least the PCs are planning hostilities) and that an attempt to derail combat into parley, cool.&nbsp; It then appears that the PC would need to move the needle on the NPC attitude a few steps, and then make a check to distract the NPCs while the party hides (I mean, I think even recently placated NPCs would be a bit on edge if the rest of the PC party suddenly vanished into hiding places).&nbsp; If all that succeeds, then, sure, ambush with surprise away -- it's not at all going to step on the toes of the stealthy characters and doesn't look even close to being easily replicible.I mean, if you're going to be a stickler for the rules, don't present situations that only occur if you don't, you know, follow the rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8040830, member: 16814"] Ah, this appears to be due to how you play, not the rules. If you play such that a player can declare a deception check to do a thing, and allow that role, the problem isn't in how the surprise rules interact with this, its due to how you've chosen to adjudicate the initial declaration. The solution is to follow the play cycle on page 4 of the PHB, and then decide which of the three methods of dice usage you're using from the DMG. I recommend the middle path, btw. Further, if you use the NPC interaction rules (also in the DMG) you'd have a strong structure. This would solve this problem before you ever got to the surprise rules because the player would declare the intent and you, as GM, would determine if that was possible and had a significant cost for failure, and then ask for an appropriate ability check. If you think it's perfectly fine for a PC to meet hostile opponents (at least the PCs are planning hostilities) and that an attempt to derail combat into parley, cool. It then appears that the PC would need to move the needle on the NPC attitude a few steps, and then make a check to distract the NPCs while the party hides (I mean, I think even recently placated NPCs would be a bit on edge if the rest of the PC party suddenly vanished into hiding places). If all that succeeds, then, sure, ambush with surprise away -- it's not at all going to step on the toes of the stealthy characters and doesn't look even close to being easily replicible. I mean, if you're going to be a stickler for the rules, don't present situations that only occur if you don't, you know, follow the rules. [/QUOTE]

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