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<blockquote data-quote="Jon Gilliam" data-source="post: 8040950" data-attributes="member: 6920404">I see nothing in the Social Interaction rules that mitigates the issue.&nbsp; RAW, you don't decide surprise on social interaction - you decide it on a skill check.&nbsp; So, even if you use Starting Attitude or Conversation (which we normally use), as soon as you're down to the surprise mechanic, you have to decide how and when the skill check was made that decides surprise.And my point still stands :&nbsp; when determining surprise from Stealth versus passive Perception, it's completely clear when the Stealth check is rolled : when the DM decides where the characters are located, whether their circumstances are such that they can attempt to hide, and whether they choose to hide. When determining surprise from some enduring state of mind, such as with Deception, instead of a transient trait of those surprising (whether they're hidden at this exact moment), you no longer have certainty about when the skill check should be performed, and you have to house-rule some criteria that's not in the rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jon Gilliam, post: 8040950, member: 6920404"] I see nothing in the Social Interaction rules that mitigates the issue. RAW, you don't decide surprise on social interaction - you decide it on a skill check. So, even if you use Starting Attitude or Conversation (which we normally use), as soon as you're down to the surprise mechanic, you have to decide how and when the skill check was made that decides surprise. And my point still stands : when determining surprise from Stealth versus passive Perception, it's completely clear when the Stealth check is rolled : when the DM decides where the characters are located, whether their circumstances are such that they can attempt to hide, and whether they choose to hide. When determining surprise from some enduring state of mind, such as with Deception, instead of a transient trait of those surprising (whether they're hidden at this exact moment), you no longer have certainty about when the skill check should be performed, and you have to house-rule some criteria that's not in the rules. [/QUOTE]

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