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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8082281" data-attributes="member: 83242">If the average party is 5-6 characters, then a deadly encounter would be about a solo CR 26 monster.&nbsp; Now a deadly encounter is only potentially lethal to 2+/- PCs per the guidelines. So, based on the guidelines you would expect a reasonably competent lvl 20 group to take out a demon lord relatively easily. IMO, a challenge, aka &quot;match,&quot; should minimally be half the party dead. So, based on the DMG I think your looking at CR 28-30 territory. Even then, there are lot of other factors to consider. The issue is not with guidelines so much, but with the low CR of the demon lords - that is what I am trying to fix <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />However, I contend that the average group of 3-5 players that only uses the basic rules, really can't cheese a demon lord. I think people who post on these boards tend to think most groups play like they do, when repeated surveys have shown that not to be the case.&nbsp; The people here are significantly more hardcore than the average group.&nbsp; Personally, I have run two groups through 5e. One defeated Tiamat and the other was TPK'd by Demogorgon. Same rules, just different play styles.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8082281, member: 83242"] If the average party is 5-6 characters, then a deadly encounter would be about a solo CR 26 monster. Now a deadly encounter is only [B]potentially [/B]lethal to 2+/- PCs per the guidelines. So, based on the guidelines you would expect a reasonably competent lvl 20 group to take out a demon lord relatively easily. IMO, a challenge, aka "match," should minimally be half the party dead. So, based on the DMG I think your looking at CR 28-30 territory. Even then, there are lot of other factors to consider. The issue is not with guidelines so much, but with the low CR of the demon lords - that is what I am trying to fix ;) However, I contend that the average group of 3-5 players that only uses the basic rules, really can't cheese a demon lord. I think people who post on these boards tend to think most groups play like they do, when repeated surveys have shown that not to be the case. The people here are significantly more hardcore than the average group. Personally, I have run two groups through 5e. One defeated Tiamat and the other was TPK'd by Demogorgon. Same rules, just different play styles. [/QUOTE]

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