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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8108843" data-attributes="member: 5889">Its fair to say, that at the CRs your talking about realistically everything is on the table, so its probably fair that it shouldn't have a CR adjustment...as much as anything should have really at those levels.In fact, in some ways you could argue its a proper high level balance mechanic.At high levels (heck starting as low as ~5th level, but definitely in your upper teens), the amount of damage in a single attack is far less deadly than the amount of damage instances a monster can generate...because of the crazy way that the damage threshold and the death saves work.If you take a 20th level character for example, we could assume a rough ~200 HP on average (d8 and +2 con). Unless you are doing an attack that deals 200 damage, it all amounts to the same thing, an unconscious character. So in that respect, a dragon who is doing 3 or so attack has a far greater chance to do &quot;real damage&quot; (aka generate failed death saves or even generate an actual death) than a dragon unleashing its full breath weapon. This is actually something to note for your small dragon damage attacks (like ignite or dread whispers). Those small damage values do matter in triggering death saves, so they might actually be more deadly to a character than a dragon that had a 50% more damaging breath but no small instance attacks.But the deadly breath brings the super damage back into the realm of deadliness, as now an attack only has to do your remaining hitpoints to kill you, which is a LOT more often. And considering that to fight a CR 30 you are fighting a creature a full 10 CR over your level (which in game terms should be a &quot;nigh impossible&quot; task), it seems reasonable that unless you bring some crazy effects or planning to bear, you are just going to get mowed down.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 8108843, member: 5889"] Its fair to say, that at the CRs your talking about realistically everything is on the table, so its probably fair that it shouldn't have a CR adjustment...as much as anything should have really at those levels. In fact, in some ways you could argue its a proper high level balance mechanic. At high levels (heck starting as low as ~5th level, but definitely in your upper teens), the amount of damage in a single attack is far less deadly than the amount of damage instances a monster can generate...because of the crazy way that the damage threshold and the death saves work. If you take a 20th level character for example, we could assume a rough ~200 HP on average (d8 and +2 con). Unless you are doing an attack that deals 200 damage, it all amounts to the same thing, an unconscious character. So in that respect, a dragon who is doing 3 or so attack has a far greater chance to do "real damage" (aka generate failed death saves or even generate an actual death) than a dragon unleashing its full breath weapon. This is actually something to note for your small dragon damage attacks (like ignite or dread whispers). Those small damage values do matter in triggering death saves, so they might actually be more deadly to a character than a dragon that had a 50% more damaging breath but no small instance attacks. But the deadly breath brings the super damage back into the realm of deadliness, as now an attack only has to do your remaining hitpoints to kill you, which is a LOT more often. And considering that to fight a CR 30 you are fighting a creature a full 10 CR over your level (which in game terms should be a "nigh impossible" task), it seems reasonable that unless you bring some crazy effects or planning to bear, you are just going to get mowed down. [/QUOTE]

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