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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 6342084" data-attributes="member: 6677017">{Quoting Kamikaze Midget (formatting problems)}The 5e suggestion is that the arrangement is like one of master and apprentice. So this seems similar. An apprentice isn't bound to serve their master -- they can take the knowledge and run. They will be defiant, but so would a 3e warlock.</blockquote>Yeah, exactly! I don't have a problem with that way of doing it. Well, really I don't have a problem with just about any way of doing it. I just would prefer it stuck with the more vague idea of your powers deriving from some supernatural source that you somehow ended up getting connected to, with a pact with a specific being as the most common method. It's pretty much how 3e did it, and it seems unnecessary to narrow the class concept.The way I would run most of the contract-style pacts, is that you usually do make an agreement to do certain things for your patron when he/she/it gifts you with powers. But once they make you a warlock, you can meet your end of the bargain or not. If you fail to honor your side of the deal, then you just got a big place on the crap-list at the minimum, and they might start sending someone or something after you or try to collect on any defaulting provisions in the arrangement. Purely role-playing, and not affecting your powers. But, as I said, I only want that to be one option--not the only option for how warlocks function.Sure. That's campaign building, which I fully approve of. I like character to have all sorts of integration with their world and have their training come from somewhere. I just don't want it specifically mandated to me by the class description.Yep! The difference is pretty arbitrary. In a lot of cases I think we are interpreting clerics with way too modern of an attitude. Most ancient religions (any many modern religions) saw priests as receiving the power of the gods--not as simply a matter of training or strength of belief, but through a conferral of a portion of that power. Much like the 4e concept of the Invoker. And the only real difference conceptual difference between your typical ancient priest and a warlock is the nature of the source of their power and their societal role--and that difference isn't even universal!And then you get into the whole concept of "What constitutes (or should constitute) a god?" in D&D. I prefer to define "god" as a statement of connection between worshipper and powerful being they worship. You can call Odin, a fiend, a fey, or the rabid owlbear running around in the woods your god if you want to. I prefer the "creature type" we normally mean when we refer to deities to be more clearly defined (BECMI had Immortals, and Planescape had Powers, I think "Immortal Powers" is a great term), and the idea of what counts as a god or not left in the realm of in-world philosophy, (The Athar in Planescape, for example believe the Powers are super powerful beings, they just don't think they should be worshipped as gods,) rather than a fairly arbitrary distinction that requires things such as deciding whether Asmodeus is a deity or a fiend, how you want to define Titania, etc. Just say that the Immortal Powers are wielders of divine forces (clerical magic) and their followers can access it, while other powerful beings have different sorts of powers available. Of course, the idea that Bane or Pelor can't make warlocks if they wants to is rather absurd (and if true definitely challenges the claim that they should have the unique right to be called deities, if they can't even pull off what the fiends and fey can.)So yeah, I'm just kind of frustrated when they make changes that have no effect on how I run the game, but mean I have to explain more than I should have to to my players after they read the PHB, and increase the amount by which I have to verify and potentially ask for special dispensation from any DM whose game I want to play in before deciding which character to make.[/QUOTE]

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