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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elf Witch" data-source="post: 5740402" data-attributes="member: 9037">I am well aware that rules layers and munchkins have been around forever.  But that is not the same as how much more codified the rules have become. Looking back on older editions I think there were less rules for certain things and things were left up to the DM. I thought it was interesting that in the 4E players handbook they put in magic items and a guide for magic items by level. To me magic items have always been the purview of the DM and I felt by doing that it shifted the power to the player.  The only way to handle a player who argues a lot is to set limits like I do at my table when I say enough this is my decision we move on. We  can revisit the issue after the game is over if you don't like that well then to put it bluntly there is the door. And as a player I give my DM the same courtesy.  As for players trying to box the DM in with rules well by logic having a codified flaws and edge system gives the DM the power to say this is the rules you picked the flaw and this is what happens. If we are afraid to add anything to the game just because a player might find away to abuse it then I have to question why we allow some of the things that I have seen be abused that are integral to the game system. As I said before multi classing, prestige classes are a problem as well as feats and spells from splat books. It might be easier all around to take those out but then the game would be very different. And again it is great if your game does need them or want them in Shadowrun it is quite clear that you need GM approval to use any of them and some GMs don't allow them at all. I have never seen major issues with having them written that way so no I don't understand why the designers of DnD are so wary of them. As I said add it in as an option that a DM can choose to incorporate in his game if he wishes or ignore if he does not want it.</blockquote>

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