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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6361501" data-attributes="member: 42582">That's giving a bit too much credit to RC! It doesn't affirmatively encourage "fiction first" - it just words the "clear path" requirement without using any technical rules language - whereas 5e uses the technical rules language of "total cover".I haven't got a handle on 5e's hiding rules yet.In 4e, hiding has three aspects (at least as I read it - the rules are scattered across general rules for skill checks, cited above in my post replying to Imaro, plus particular rules for adjudicating Stealth skill checks):* The player must declare a Stealth check as an action for his/her PC, and this is subject to a "credibility test" based on ingame context/situation. At this point there are no technical/"gamist" rules involved. * If the action declaration is permitted, we then move to adjudication. The rules for adjudication state that the check will autofail if the character doesn't have at least one of superior cover (in 5e that would be 3/4 cover) or total concealment (= heavily obscured, in 5e). If the check doesn't autofail, then the d20 is rolled and the result is adjudicated against passive Perception (so you can be hidden from some people but not others, depending how good their passive Perception is). * Once the character is hidden, the third aspect is maintaining that status. If the character moves more than 2 sq (10'), a new Stealth check must be made, with a penalty - so moving is risky. A character automatically loses hidden status after attacking, after making noise louder than a whisper, or after becoming observable; but a character who loses hidden status retains combat advantage for any attack that is part of the same action that caused him/her to lose hidden status (this is how rogues attack from hiding - they use special actions that permit them to combine movement with an attack, included but not limited to charging). Finally, there are rules on observability: if you break cover completely then you become observable by anyone who is not distracted; but as long as you retain partial cover (= 5e 1/2 cover) or concealment (= 5e light obscurement) then you do not become observable.I think that 4e, by differentiating the degree of cover/concealment needed to avoid your initial Stealth check auto-failing, from the degree of cover/concealment needed to remain hidden after a successful Stealth check, introduces complexity that is absent in 5e. But the benefit of this complexity is that it is much easier to adjudicate a character "breaking cover" to try and sneak to a new position. For instance, a character behind a building (superior cover) can make a Stealth check and become hidden; then, s/he can sneak out below a low wall (partial cover) and if s/he moves further than 2 sq will have to make another check, but as long as that check is successful s/he remains hidden even though s/he now only has partial cover. And s/he can then snipe from behind that wall and get advantage (because hidden status isn't lost until after s/he attacks).To regain hidden status, the 4e rules require making a new check as a separate action (which can include moving to sufficient cover/concealment to ensure the check is not an autofail).Of course, there are special abilities - mostly for rogues - that alter the above rules eg that allow hidden status to be maintained even if the character moves through an area with no cover/concealment at all; or that allow hiding even if the character attacks, or loses cover and concealment, as long as the character doesn't move; etc.As far as targeting is concerned, 4e assumes that you can target a character provided you can see or hear him/her (otherwise you have to guess). If you can't see there are penalties for non-AoE attacks. A character who has the hidden status is considered both invisible and silent, and so can't be targeted except via guesswork.To get combat advantage on an attack it is enough to be invisible.Therefore, a character who can get invisibility without become hidden - eg via a ring of invisibility, a darkness spell that others can't see through, etc - doesn't need to use the Stealth rules to get advantage. But using the Steath rules can give such a character the chance to move away silently as well as invisibly and thereby avoid being targeted other than by guesswork.Conversely, a character who need to use Stealth to become invisible, and thereby gain combat advantage, also needs to remain silent, because if s/he makes a noise then s/he loses the hidden status and hence invisibility as well as inaudibility. This would apply, for example, to a character who made a Stealth check behind a building, and then snuck out  as I described above, using a low wall for (partial) cover. If that character calls out to his/her friends, then s/he loses hidden status, and hence invisibility, and hence wouldn't get advantage on any subsequent attack.To me it seems to work fairly well, but I haven't had players who have tried to put a lot of pressure on it, so I'm not sure where the break points might be if there are any.</blockquote>

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