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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6362042" data-attributes="member: 20323">In general my sympathies are with warrior types in D&D, so I think it would be easy to accept a lot of your assertions at face value. However, as I was curious what the rules REALLY say, I have tested each of your assertions and found some interesting things...Thunderwave vs. ShoveThunderwave can work on any size of creature, while Shove only works on creatures within one size category of the warrior. Casters are better than warriors here. Fix needed.[sblock=Proposed Fixes]]Proposed Fix (Shove): Shove could work against a creature size up to a number of sizes above the shoving character equal to the shoving character's Strength modifier. For example, assuming a human character: At Strength 11 and less they can only shove Medium creatures. At Strength 12-13, they can shove Large creatures. At 14-15, Huge creatures. At 16-17, Gargantuan. At 18+, Colossal.Proposed Fix (Warriors): Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues could have class or sub-class features which allow them to shove any creature regardless of size with a combination of timing, seeking out weak points, brawn, and skill.[/sblock]Levitate vs. LiftingLevitate works on up to 500 lbs, but requires concentration. Lifting works on a weight (in pounds) equal to 30 x your Strength score, but limits your speed to 5 feet. A warrior with 17 Strength can thus lift 510 lbs, while a warrior with 20 Strength can lift 600 lbs. This is comparable to the Iranian Olympic lifter Hossein Rezazadeh lifting 263 kg (579 lbs) with a clean & jerk, which is a decent measure of functional strength. We all know lifters can lift more than that in ideal conditions for quick bursts, but a warrior in 5e can lift that amount, keep it above his head, and walk around slowly with it. That's pretty impressive.Casters and warriors are comparable.Jump Spell vs. JumpingI don't have the PHB yet so I don't know what the Jump spell does exactly. However, we do know that you can long jump a distance equal to your strength score in feet (up to 20 feet) with a running start. Furthermore, characters with the Remarkable Athlete sub-class feature add their Strength modifier in feet (for a total of up to 25 feet). That's approaching world record range...wearing armor and carrying a backpack no less!Depending on what the Jump spell does, it may be that casters overshadow warriors here. I don't know yet.Shatter vs. Break ObjectsShatter deals 3d8 to creatures and objects. In terms of damage output at lower levels, yes this beats a warrior trying to smash a statue fast. However, there are three things working against the Shatter spell. First, a DM can allow a Strength check to break an object (bypassing damage altogether). Second, a DM can declare certain objects vulnerable, resistant, or immune to certain types of damage (e.g. Shatter might fail against hemp rope altogether). Third, Shatter makes a very loud sound; though the text doesn't say how far this sound is heard, a DM could reasonably rule it was similar to the Knock spell (300') since it *is* thunder damage.Casters and warriors seem comparable in this regard.Passwall vs. Knock Down Physical BarriersTo a certain extent, this issue is similar to the one above. Passwall is awesome, and lets you create a passage thru 20' thick stone! It is also a 5th level spell that lasts for 1 hour, meaning that once you get into wherever you want to be, deal with the challenges there, get what you came for, you only have an hour to get out (or you must save a 5th level spell slot, or find some way to rest in what is very likely hostile territory). A warrior breaking down a door doesn't have to deal with this time limit (or the expenditure of resources). Because of the spell's level it will probably not be used with any old door but will be reserved for the special stuff. That said, traditionally in D&D there have been magic building materials (gorgon's blood) which prevented Passwall.This is a hard one to judge, because what is to say that a warrior couldn't muster some hirelings in town to man a battering ram to the same effect? It may need a fix, if only because mustering hirelings is (a) costly, and (b) something within the DM's purview that theoretically any character can do.[sblock=Proposed Fixes]Proposed Fix (Warrior Hirelings): Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues could get a class feature which lets them call on a certain number of hirelings "for free." Alternately, this could be abstracted to a class feature called simply Hirelings, and then listing examples of what the hirelings for that class can be called on to do.Proposed Fix (Passwall): Make Passwall have higher casting costs, both in terms of casting time taking longer and having components with a gold piece value.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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