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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6631570" data-attributes="member: 5834">Well, I think it is a problem for the other martials like the duelist and two-weapon martial and the monk and rogue (though I'm torn about the rogue because the class has a lot of nifty abilities a party can leverage to do some crazy stuff). I tend to look at the game and PCs in terms of "What role can they fill and how well can they fill it? How effective can they be in the widest range of possible combat and non-combat encounters?" I feel the game is balanced if someone can do something very well that no one else can do that provides a significant advantage for the group. Clerics are generally the best healers. Bards are the best party buffers. Druids are a little bit wizard, a little bit healer, and can be built in different ways to provide a party with an advantage. Wizards are the most versatile spellcasters and can do some amazing things at high level in every pillar. Warlocks have some crazy combinations that make them powerful like being able to fight within darkness and the best attack cantrip in the game. Not sure about Sorcerers yet, but I do see some powerful possibilities.Martials mostly hit stuff for damage. Each martial type can do a little something else like the barbarian taking damage extremely well or the paladin's many nifty defensive abilities. At the end of it all, they hit stuff for damage. The rogue is a little different because he can scout really, really well. He can kill enemies while scouting really, really well. You could send a rogue into a room with greater invisibility filled with two or three giants, he could kill them by himself without taking much, if any, damage if they have no means to see invisible creatures. A rogue in the right terrain with a ranged weapon can kill things without them finding him. They did a really good job of making rogues into stealthy killers in 5E. I'm not sure how to value that at the moment. Maybe most parties are impatient and the rogue wont' have time to do what he does. If a party is patient, he can soften up an area by himself with minimal risk. Rogues are great at mitigating damage by moving in and around combat.With my arcane trickster and time, I removed sentries down an entire passageway when entering a dungeon clearing the way for the party and preventing us from wasting time rolling out combats with a the party. I also snuck around a dungeon killing things in rooms by myself to speed up dungeon exploration. How valuable an ability is it to be able to gain surprise on an opponent and soften them up before the party faces them? Hard to rate as it will vary by party. I found it to be a very valuable ability. This is why I don't necessarily agree that expertise is as valuable to a Lore Bard as it is to a Rogue. Sure, a lore bard can scout. But a lore bard doesn't do the damage a rogue can and thus isn't as good at sentry/monster removal while scouting. A party won't see that unless they are willing to let the rogue have enough time to do sentry removal. None of the other martials can do what a rogue can do as well as the rogue can do it. It may warrant them having more straight up fight combat damage from a feat like Sharpshooter and GWM.</blockquote>

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