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<blockquote data-quote="Ridley's Cohort" data-source="post: 6633348" data-attributes="member: 545">I agree with the gist of Celtavian's argument, even though we might quibble about the details.The way I look at it is that a certain kind of fight that should be fun and memorable pushes the Party into a certain less fun path, due to the details of the mechanics.&nbsp; A Dragon Fight is a certain kind of fight that should be fun for all and the DM would hope would be memorable.&nbsp; But for a very common style of Party make up, there is an optimal tactical choice for defeating that dragon.&nbsp; Unfortunately that optimal tactical choice is ends up being dull.&nbsp; This puts both the players and the DM in a bind.&nbsp; How should the DM stat out the dragon?&nbsp; If he allows for non-optimal tactics, the party might choose optimal tactics and the fight is a boring stroll.&nbsp; If the players opt for non-boring tactics, they risk getting punished for refusing to play as optimizers.This is not a genuinely new problem to D&amp;D, but a reinvention of an old issue.&nbsp; Back in 1e/2e days, I called it the Boring Big Stick Fight.&nbsp; The basic problem is when you had the showdown with the Big Monster at the end of the adventure, the only PCs who could reliably damage the main foe were the one or two guys with the biggest plus weapons.&nbsp; Due the mechanics of 1e/2e DR, SR, saves, and resistances (which you might not know anything about because you have never fought this exact monster before) the other party members might literally do zero damage round after round after round.&nbsp; Therefore they were relegated to a support role of buffing, healing the big hitters, and sometime keeping mooks away.&nbsp; Now the first couple times we met this tactical situation, it was a somewhat interesting puzzle to solve.&nbsp; But the fourth time?&nbsp; Yawn.It seems that 5e has created a new variant of this same problem, that a certain category of fights are dull because the optimal tactics are both boring and obvious once you have figured them out.&nbsp; Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issue, like drop Boots of Flying into the loot; but that is an implicit admission that Celtavian's point is correct.The general idea of the concentration restriction seems like a great thing to me.&nbsp; But it may be too all or nothing and too inflexible for making the game be as fun as possible.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ridley's Cohort, post: 6633348, member: 545"] I agree with the gist of Celtavian's argument, even though we might quibble about the details. The way I look at it is that a certain kind of fight that should be fun and memorable pushes the Party into a certain less fun path, due to the details of the mechanics. A Dragon Fight is a certain kind of fight that should be fun for all and the DM would hope would be memorable. But for a very common style of Party make up, there is an optimal tactical choice for defeating that dragon. Unfortunately that optimal tactical choice is ends up being dull. This puts both the players and the DM in a bind. How should the DM stat out the dragon? If he allows for non-optimal tactics, the party might choose optimal tactics and the fight is a boring stroll. If the players opt for non-boring tactics, they risk getting punished for refusing to play as optimizers. This is not a genuinely new problem to D&D, but a reinvention of an old issue. Back in 1e/2e days, I called it the Boring Big Stick Fight. The basic problem is when you had the showdown with the Big Monster at the end of the adventure, the only PCs who could reliably damage the main foe were the one or two guys with the biggest plus weapons. Due the mechanics of 1e/2e DR, SR, saves, and resistances (which you might not know anything about because you have never fought this exact monster before) the other party members might literally do zero damage round after round after round. Therefore they were relegated to a support role of buffing, healing the big hitters, and sometime keeping mooks away. Now the first couple times we met this tactical situation, it was a somewhat interesting puzzle to solve. But the fourth time? Yawn. It seems that 5e has created a new variant of this same problem, that a certain category of fights are dull because the optimal tactics are both boring and obvious once you have figured them out. Obviously there are ways to mitigate the issue, like drop Boots of Flying into the loot; but that is an implicit admission that Celtavian's point is correct. The general idea of the concentration restriction seems like a great thing to me. But it may be too all or nothing and too inflexible for making the game be as fun as possible. [/QUOTE]

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