Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 8770537" data-attributes="member: 20564">Your details support my point, I am unsure how you come to a different conclusion.  Can we examine?In one, the barbarian was lack-luster.  An at-will, like a rogue, would be the same all of the way through.In the other, the barbarian was not lackluster.  An at-will would be at exactly the same.So, if in one the barbarian is worse and in one they are better, they absolutely vary compared to the static value of the rogue.  So their relative power compared to the rogue varies.  They aren't both balanced against the rogue, so it affects balance between classes.So a 2014 beastmaster ranger is balanced against all other classes and subclasses because no one says it's "too OP"?  No, balance has to do both when it's stronger and weaker.If the barbarian is noticeably weaker, it's out of balance.I am, this is a generic discussion talking about averages.  It's somewhat unavoidable when talking about the state of the game as a whole.  You are right that there can be individual variations, but looking at the math can give you a big picture feel across a lot of campaigns, and is what you need to design against.Which was my entire point.I feel you are getting stuck in the weeds.  I talked about a spell you would cast for your average 3-4 round combat, how if you already cast it, you would get extra utility out of it if the combat went longer.  By this point, you have already cast it for the encounter you knew about.And again, duration is the small part of the whole thing.  Don't get too hung up on it.  It's 20% of the whole presentation.Wave 1 has 8 foes.  Hyponotic Pattern catches 6 of them, 2 whom are later broken out.  4 foes are killed leaving 2 active before wave 2 appears with 3 more foes.Case 1:  You fight five foes (2+3) at once, with two still caught in Hypnotic Patten to be dealt with later.Case 2:  You believe Hypontic Pattern brings no additional value and drop concentration. You fight seven foes at once.Not all duration spells bring extended value, but even on the one you insist can't, it can.  Case 1 is better than Case 2.  It doesn't have to, and maybe it will be best to spend more resources and cast a new concentration spell.  But that's more actions and resources, and the apples to apples of just that one casting shows there is still residual value in the Hypnotic Pattern.And that's one of the least, while the Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon will retain most/all of their value when a second wave comes.</blockquote>

Verification