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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 8770564" data-attributes="member: 53980">If. That's what you're missing. If a second wave comes. Not when. That's the crucial distinction. If you always have perfect knowledge that waves are coming... well, there's the reason I'd say those spells seem as good to you as they do.I'll try again to explain regarding the barbarian. Let's pretend for a moment that the Barbarian class never existed. And let's imagine that I create a class called the Commoner with just the stuff the NPC commoner gets. We play it for a while and the feedback I get from the players is (unsurprisingly) that it feels really undertuned. So I go back to the drawing board and create the Revised Commoner, which just happens to be identical to the 5e Barbarian class. Sure, you could make the claim that the balance changed from the Commoner to the Revised Commoner. It's kind of a misnomer to call it a balance issue. The Commoner had very poor balance and the Revised Commoner has better balance. I haven't unbalanced the game by creating the Revised Commoner. The rogue and the fighter don't suddenly feel overshadowed by the Revised Commoner. If they did, then that would be a balance issue.Similarly, I don't think giving the Barbarian a rage in every encounter would unbalance the game. Sure, this Revised Barbarian is better than the original, but if I am correct in my assessment that a Barbarian without rage is significantly undertuned, and a Barbarian with rage is not overtuned, then you haven't damaged the balance with this hypothetical Revised Barbarian that rages in every encounter.Just come on with your Hypnotic Pattern comparison. It's a complete strawman. You're literally comparing maintaining the spell versus dropping it for literally no reason. Obviously there is going to be a difference in that case, except that literally no one would ever drop the spell for no reason. You might as well argue that there's a meaningful distinction between the two as long as we assume that the wizard player has been lobotomized. My point was that Hypnotic Pattern brings no more value in a multi-wave encounter than a single wave (unless you wait until later waves arrive to use it, but that had its own issues). If you incapacitate 4 doods in round 1, and 4 more doods show up in round 2, your spell only incapacitated 4 doods. If we split the waves into entirely separate encounters, your spell would only incapacitate 4 doods.I've focused on durations in multi-wave encounters because that seemed to be the basis of the argument in your original post that I responded to.</blockquote>

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