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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9741537" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Trying to fit an Avenger into a Fighter (or Paladin) is even less reasonable than trying to fit in Warlord, because they're doing fundamentally different things.The Avenger, from 4e, revealed an under-served archetype, that has both historical precedent (the<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Assassins" target="_blank"> actual Hashshashin</a>, for example, or the--claimed--righteous warrior nature of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benandanti" target="_blank">Benandanti</a>) and roleplay-gameplay value (e.g. fans of Ezio Auditore and his whole thing). That does not fit into the "oath" structure of the Paladin thematically, nor does it fit into the "heavy armor, shield, protector-healer" Paladin mechanically. The Avenger gives us something that has been missing for a long time: the holy skillmonkey, the divine stabby-boi. Someone who can be a devout religious person, and yet also a ruthless killer, whose "support" manifests only and exclusively in the hunting down of wickedness, not in anything that actually heals or bolsters or inspires others.Wardens are straight-up people who wear the power of nature as a cloak. Why would that be a Fighter? How would that be a Fighter?Do you really think a person with angelic blood captures what teh Benandanti or Hashshashin were?The Invoker is one I'll at least somewhat grant. I, personally, think it is important because what the Cleric is is actually pretty badly not-compatible with the Moses archetype, the "Calling God's fire down from the heavens" type. I personally think that that thematic (and mechanical) niche has been badly underserved, and that's why I think it's in there. It's also, you'll note, one of the ones I felt was less likely to get implemented, so....it's not like I didn't know there were weaknesses here. But the simple fact is, Clerics are, inherently, supportive--they can elect to lean away from that, but it's just that, electing to. Invokers aren't supportive--they don't get the choice. Invokers have only a very minimal amount of support (mostly in that the fire they call down doesn't hurt allies, and might even slightly boost them). They don't heal, they don't resurrect, they don't do buffs really. They're miracles of divine wrath, not divine succor.A machinist actually uses machines. Not magic. This is like saying that a Fighter should just be re-interpreted as a Bladesinger with spells that can't be counterspelled.</blockquote>

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