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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7459955" data-attributes="member: 996">Nod.&nbsp; That happened to my old group when we first hit Paragon.&nbsp; Not a halt, litterally, of course, but there's a definite shift at paragon, you get Path abilities to think about, and off-turn actions become much more common.&nbsp; It took a little getting used to.&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;'Old School' to me means the guys who've been playing since back in the day and are really hard-core about it.&nbsp; I'd be one of them if I hadn't played so many other games besides D&amp;D over the years.&nbsp;&nbsp; But there was a huge demographic of folks who played D&amp;D back in the day, and then never touched RPGs again, when they come back, they think &quot;I know this stuff&quot; or &quot;I'll start out simple with a fighter&quot; and when they find out they don't, and it's not, it turns 'em off.&nbsp; Saw it happen more than a few times.&nbsp; The really hard-core old school had already abandoned WotC over 3.0!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp; The ones that hadn't jumped ship to Arduin Grimoire decades before... &nbsp;&nbsp; The transition into running 4e was surprisingly easy, and the game remained functional at high level, so you'd get someone showing up for a season or two of encounters, then running a season, then home games would spin off - they'd even go through Epic.&nbsp; It's not like everyone who tried D&amp;D has loved it, ever, but the immediate rejection, the try it once &amp; never again reaction that I was acustomed to from 1e &amp; 3e (and a few other games, for that matter), and still see in 5e, was just less pronounced in 4e.&nbsp;&nbsp; It was just a more accessible version of the game.Likewise, I was used to high level campaigns falling appart in the low double-digits, but 4e held up much better than that.&nbsp; I'm still running a campaign that's at 25th, and playing in one that's at 23rd, both intend to go through to 30.&nbsp; The highest I'd ever gotten a campaign to in 1e was 14th (with a standard class, there was one PC who hit 18th, but it was with a custom class that needed very little exp to level), that's also the best I've seen a 3.x campaign do, usually a lot worse.&nbsp; &nbsp;It's not hard to identify:&nbsp; 4e was just functional out of the box (OK, and a year or so of errata!) and easy to run.&nbsp; The game itself, was innovative (for D&amp;D, which is damning with faint praise, indeed).&nbsp; You could be creative all you wanted:&nbsp; you just weren't forced to in order to keep your game from imploding.&nbsp; You could be creative as a player just be re-skinning choices, you didn't need to rip out the guts of the mechanics and re-wire them just to make something a little off the wall.OTOH, I noticed, after running 5e at AL for a bit, I got back into the habbit of running in the improvisational style I'd favored back in the day, and it crept right back into my 4e camaign, as well.&nbsp;&nbsp; That general sort of thing seemed true with a lot of the 'sytle' complaints.&nbsp; People would say &quot;this doesn't 'support' my style!&quot;&nbsp; No, it just doesn't force your style.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7459955, member: 996"] Nod. That happened to my old group when we first hit Paragon. Not a halt, litterally, of course, but there's a definite shift at paragon, you get Path abilities to think about, and off-turn actions become much more common. It took a little getting used to. 'Old School' to me means the guys who've been playing since back in the day and are really hard-core about it. I'd be one of them if I hadn't played so many other games besides D&D over the years. But there was a huge demographic of folks who played D&D back in the day, and then never touched RPGs again, when they come back, they think "I know this stuff" or "I'll start out simple with a fighter" and when they find out they don't, and it's not, it turns 'em off. Saw it happen more than a few times. The really hard-core old school had already abandoned WotC over 3.0! ;) The ones that hadn't jumped ship to Arduin Grimoire decades before... The transition into running 4e was surprisingly easy, and the game remained functional at high level, so you'd get someone showing up for a season or two of encounters, then running a season, then home games would spin off - they'd even go through Epic. It's not like everyone who tried D&D has loved it, ever, but the immediate rejection, the try it once & never again reaction that I was acustomed to from 1e & 3e (and a few other games, for that matter), and still see in 5e, was just less pronounced in 4e. It was just a more accessible version of the game. Likewise, I was used to high level campaigns falling appart in the low double-digits, but 4e held up much better than that. I'm still running a campaign that's at 25th, and playing in one that's at 23rd, both intend to go through to 30. The highest I'd ever gotten a campaign to in 1e was 14th (with a standard class, there was one PC who hit 18th, but it was with a custom class that needed very little exp to level), that's also the best I've seen a 3.x campaign do, usually a lot worse. It's not hard to identify: 4e was just functional out of the box (OK, and a year or so of errata!) and easy to run. The game itself, was innovative (for D&D, which is damning with faint praise, indeed). You could be creative all you [i]wanted[/i]: you just weren't forced to in order to keep your game from imploding. You could be creative as a player just be re-skinning choices, you didn't need to rip out the guts of the mechanics and re-wire them just to make something a little off the wall. OTOH, I noticed, after running 5e at AL for a bit, I got back into the habbit of running in the improvisational style I'd favored back in the day, and it crept right back into my 4e camaign, as well. That general sort of thing seemed true with a lot of the 'sytle' complaints. People would say "this doesn't 'support' my style!" No, it just doesn't force your style. [/QUOTE]

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