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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7460669" data-attributes="member: 996">That's a very different qualifier.&nbsp; When I say that 4e was more accessible to the new player, of course that mostly meant at 1st level, where 4e was at it's &quot;lightest&quot; and 5e has some issues with unexpected lethality, and even the basic-pdf casters have some substantial complexity.&nbsp; Not only that, but when introducing new players, be it 4e or 5e (or prior eds), I'll always use pregens.&nbsp; I was involved in Encounters from the 2nd season on, so that was level 1-4 over &amp; over. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />There's no question the DDI tools, balky as they were, also made the game that much easier for those who used them, and that was part of the design intent.&nbsp; The groups that formed around encounters tables and cleaved off to form home games typically shared a DDI account......frankly, I think sometimes more than one group had shared a single DDI...My old group did without the tools and ran through to Paragon level without undue hardship (we did hit 'the wall' the first time into paragon), but we were all experienced.&nbsp; &nbsp;Except for the 'unholy mess' that's not far wrong.&nbsp; 4e had a very clear, almost technical-manual presentation, so it was easy to 'parse' a power right at the table and figure out what it did.&nbsp; Very little of the back-and-forth rules debates that were common in 3.x and punted to DM fiat before that.&nbsp; While it's easy to spin that negatively (or even honestly experience it negatively, in contrast to long familiarity with the game's more quixotic older-ed rules), it's still a positive (clarity) in making the system that much easier to learn for new players, and that much easier to run, since you don't have to review every PC ability in advance.&nbsp; The experience of playing through the heroic levels is pretty smooth, that way.&nbsp; Paragon, as I've said, does feel like a wall when you first hit it, but it passed quickly, IMX.Though, contrary to my own opinion on Paragon, I did have success with new players playing 16th level pregens at a convention.&nbsp; I guess there's always an exception.&nbsp;Based only upon what you have said, yourself.&nbsp; I can't base assumptions about you on anything else.&nbsp; Not taking to changes in something you've enjoyed for a long time is hardly unusual and not some terrible fault.&nbsp; OTOH, misrepresenting those changes is an issue.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7460669, member: 996"] That's a very different qualifier. When I say that 4e was more accessible to the new player, of course that mostly meant at 1st level, where 4e was at it's "lightest" and 5e has some issues with unexpected lethality, and even the basic-pdf casters have some substantial complexity. Not only that, but when introducing new players, be it 4e or 5e (or prior eds), I'll always use pregens. I was involved in Encounters from the 2nd season on, so that was level 1-4 over & over. ;) There's no question the DDI tools, balky as they were, also made the game that much easier for those who used them, and that was part of the design intent. The groups that formed around encounters tables and cleaved off to form home games typically shared a DDI account... ...frankly, I think sometimes more than one group had shared a single DDI... My old group did without the tools and ran through to Paragon level without undue hardship (we did hit 'the wall' the first time into paragon), but we were all experienced. Except for the 'unholy mess' that's not far wrong. 4e had a very clear, almost technical-manual presentation, so it was easy to 'parse' a power right at the table and figure out what it did. Very little of the back-and-forth rules debates that were common in 3.x and punted to DM fiat before that. While it's easy to spin that negatively (or even honestly experience it negatively, in contrast to long familiarity with the game's more quixotic older-ed rules), it's still a positive (clarity) in making the system that much easier to learn for new players, and that much easier to run, since you don't have to review every PC ability in advance. The experience of playing through the heroic levels is pretty smooth, that way. Paragon, as I've said, does feel like a wall when you first hit it, but it passed quickly, IMX. Though, contrary to my own opinion on Paragon, I did have success with new players playing 16th level pregens at a convention. I guess there's always an exception. Based only upon what you have said, yourself. I can't base assumptions about you on anything else. Not taking to changes in something you've enjoyed for a long time is hardly unusual and not some terrible fault. OTOH, misrepresenting those changes is an issue. [/QUOTE]

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