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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7664392" data-attributes="member: 48965">No... what it shows is that D&D continued to outsell Pathfinder in hobby stores (surprisingly (or not) enough where D&D Encounters were being held) but there is plenty of data, as you said admittedly incomplete that points in a different direction...like amazon rankings which show the Pathfinder corebook being ranked higher that the 4e books for more periods than 4e is ranked higher than Pathfinder.I fail to see ho ICV2 rankings show what you are suggesting here... If anything I would say it is suggesting that 4e had a strong showing in hobby shops (probably due to the encounters program), nothing more and nothing less.  It would seem to reason that since there is a concentration of 4e players on a regular weekly basis that the sales for 4e items would be disproportionately higher in these outlets, especially when one factors in the Paizo model for selling books with a free PDF through subs. If you say so... I didn't see this with 4e at all when I participated in encounters for a limited time...Again our experiences differ.  I saw alot of players come and go at the hobby shop where I played at, and the same 3 DM's running it each week for the swag.    Yeah if it took it 10 years to make up for the fans it lost in one... I'm going to go ahead and call that a failure. Why would it have been lost by essentials when essentials wasn't a new edition but supplements to the 4e core?  At least that was the party line back then to anyone who suggested otherwise... As to "defending 4e from attack" let's just say I saw plenty of "attacks" on 3e by 4e proponents espousing their own "one wayism".  And finally as to 4e's advancements... let's just say if the game becomes less fun for me to play, I don't consider it an advancement.  But just from reading this paragraph above I can tell we probably aren't going to find a middle ground on 4e since I'm not keen on one side playing the victim role...EDIT: Emphasis Mine...Slinging words like fanatical around for the 3.x and old school fan bases because they didn't share your preferences in gaming  doesn't really give much credence to your cries of victimization... It appears the 4venger continues to be strong in this one.</blockquote>

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