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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7664866" data-attributes="member: 996">a +11 difference is wildly different from a +11-13 difference?  Really?  Both were trained/proficient vs untrained/non-proficient, both were heavily invested in a stat vs no investment in the stat.  Both were high level.  Nothing in the least misleading about the example.   There's a clear difference among 3.5, 4e, and 5e in how they model lack of interest in a skill at high level.  In 3.x, if you never invest in a skill, you are as bad at 20th as you were at 1st, and compared to someone who invested heavily in that skill, that's incredibly, something that completely eclipses the d20 roll.  We're talking +30 or more vs as little as -1.  In 4e, if you never invested in a skill in the slightest, and 30th level, you'd still be +15 (that's assuming an 8 stat at 1st level) better than you were at 1st level, while the heavily invested guy (with race & epic destiny both piling onto the skills stat) would be +28 -  a difference not  entirely eclipse by the roll of a d20.  In 5e, you're talking -1 for 8 stat and no proficiency, vs 11 for max stat and proficiency, still, unlike 3.5, and like 4e, something where a d20 roll can sometimes make up the difference.You characterized the 4e solution as a 'problem,' and, rather than claim it wasn't a problem, I pointed out that the 5e solution had a contrary 'problem.'  It's a matter of how you want to model the high end of the spectrum.That's hardly me being unable to see another point of view. By claiming that 5e 'solved the 4e problem,' that is exactly what you presumed.   Clearly you do or you wouldn't be screaming at me for accepting that both can be characterized as problems. They have different side effects, but they do accomplish the same primary thing:  minimizing the difference between the specialist and the non-specialist skill checks at very high level, which was an issue in 3.x (albeit, perhaps an issue that some folks loved, because they wanted that kind of profound spread in competence to make most skill checks one-man-shows). And, 5e characters are still on this same-proficiency-bonus-for-everyone progression, just as 4e characters were on the same level bonus for everyone progression.  It's just not applied as evenly.   But, yes, I am arguing against aspects of Hussar's theory that 4e and 5e are 'the same' .... Heh.  I think you're overstating it.  Yes, details like bounded accuracy, HD, overnight healing, at-will & encounter powers for casters, a few specific spells, battlemaster maneuvers, Adv/Dis and whatnot may have been lifted from 4e in one sense or another.  But they're not in the same form as in 4e, nor are they put to the same use.  Bounded accuracy is like the treadmill, but unevenly applied.  HD are like surges, but are so few and independent of other types of healing, that spells are once again the prime sources of healing.  The benefits of AEDU are there, in a sense, for an individual character if he's the right caster class, but the broader benefits of class balance have been thoroughly purged.  The whole beast may be made up of distorted fragments of 3.x, 4e, and d20 in general - but it is still very much in the shape of 2e.  Like a dinosaur re-engineered from bird DNA.</blockquote>

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