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7 Years of D&D Stories? And a "Big Reveal" Coming?
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<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 7664970" data-attributes="member: 6680772"><p>To be honest...I don't know. On one hand, it seems almost a fait accompli that there will be emergent design drift, like in every other edition. On the other hand, since the redesign of 2e into 3e, the game has seen 5 revisions (3.5, 4e, PF, 4eE, 5e). 3e was very much a reaction to 2e. Likewise 4e was a reaction to 3e. 5e...is a reaction to 4e, but looked much further back than other editions, I think. 3e and 4e were all about taking the game where it hadn't been before. 5e is, for both good and ill, about boldly going where D&D has gone before. Also, 3e was very focused on being a rules-as-physics simulator. 4e was very focused being a tightly balanced, encounter based game. 5e offers both in somewhat diluted forms, but isn't about being either of those. 5e is very much a throwback, because it's not really designed to be <em>about</em> anything, except what the group wants to put into it. It's like, there undoubtedly broken combinations to be found via combining multiclassing and feats. But, both are completely optional, and explicitly called out as so, so it's very much caveat emptor.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Inspiration is one of those ideally placed mechanics. There are undoubtedly groups that say, "Inspiration? Forget that!", and they can do that because while it has a mechanical expression, it is not mechanically necessary. Other groups just use it as a benny, a use that as old as the RPG hills -- e.g., "That was hilarious! Here, have some free advantage to distribute as you like!" I think the vast majority of people are using it like this, which is why you aren't hearing much discussion. Finally there's the opposite side of the spectrum from the first group: these are the folks that take those Bonds, Flaws, and Traits seriously! The DMs in these groups are very careful to distribute Inspiration when dramatically, thematically, and characteristically appropriate. The players, I imagine, are diligent in describing the effect of the inspiration in the game fiction. But I think this is a very small subset of the D&D population.</p><p></p><p>If there's one thing that I find especially distinctive about 5e, it's this. So much of the game just <em>feels</em> like, "Push this throttle as far as you are comfortable, and then leave it there."</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not quite sure what you mean by story progression. As far as non-combat, again this is something you can throttle up or down. My group likes to wing it, with me using a lot of random rolls, because we're used to B/X, so we don't really use the social interaction rules in the DMG. But if someone really likes having mechanics for that, they are there. There are the downtime rules that give PCs things to do between adventures. And of course as you know the Bonds, Traits, Flaws, create character hooks that encourage players to be proactive in the world, rather than reactive to whatever the DM is running that day.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I may not be the best person to ask, since I roll my monsters' damage, rather than using the average. As someone who likes fast combat, the math feels good to me (I don't have quite the time or inclination to do a more thorough, objective analysis). More than a few times, on first glance, I would think that a monster had a few too many hit points, but ultimately once battle was joined I found that the players hit often enough and did enough damage that it didn't get too grindy. Actually, running Lost Mines of Phandelver, I had an interesting experience-</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Spoilers]In the first part of the adventure, the characters, at 1st level fight a bugbear and its pet wolf. Bugbears have 27 hp, compared to goblins' 7 hp and wolves' 11 hp. The first time the characters fought the bugbear and wolf, man I was worried they wouldn't be able to pull it out. But they just barely did. After leveling up, they spend part 2 in the Redbrand Hideout, which has a room with <strong>three</strong> bugbears. Remembering the earlier fight, I thought this was going to be too much for the characters. To my surprise, the three bugbears were pretty quickly and pretty easily dealt with.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>I think people might get an impression after playing a session or 2 at 1st or 2nd level that the game is very lethal. But as a matter of fact, the curve from 1st to 3rd level is really steep, and PCs become able to shake off the vagaries of chance. A fighter, for example, has 32 hp at level 3, even with no Con bonus. Most monsters of equivalent CR or lower can't drop him with one hit, even on a crit, let alone kill him outright.</p><p></p><p>I can't speak very well to nova-ing. It's never really been in my group's repertoire. It seems like the viability of cantrips actually takes some of the edge off; the casters in my group tend to use their cantrips as probing jabs. If they can take out the foe that way, fine, if not, then they comeback with a big spell knock-out punch. Every class seems to have some resource they can replenish with a short rest, so that takes some pressure off, too. But I can't speak for groups for which nova'ing and 15-minute work days was a real problem. It <em>is</em> balanced for the adventuring day, though. So if a DM only does 1 encounter an adventuring day, there's no incentive for casters not to nova beyond anything that fighters and thieves can do. But IMXP, it's jab, jab, BAM!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Haven't played any high-level yet. FWIW, I had the same reaction to the change in Indomitable. That said...you may be aware that 5e has a somewhat unusual CR spread. There are a <em>lot</em> of monsters in the low end, and very few on the high end. And the reason is, due to bounded accuracy, the lower level monsters have more viability. But what this also means is that really, most monsters that require saves require something in the DC 11-13 range -- they're just as effected by Bounded Accuracy as the characters. Heck, the infamous Ghouls' paralysis is a DC 10 Saving Throw. Throw in such effects as Bless or Bardic Inspiration, and PCs seem to make a lot of Saves. True, the Adult Red Dragon requires some scary saves. But at that point, between Ability Score Improvements, Feats, buff spells, magic items, and various class features, I don't think it's going to be especially a big problem. And if it is, it's extremely easy to adjust.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 7664970, member: 6680772"] To be honest...I don't know. On one hand, it seems almost a fait accompli that there will be emergent design drift, like in every other edition. On the other hand, since the redesign of 2e into 3e, the game has seen 5 revisions (3.5, 4e, PF, 4eE, 5e). 3e was very much a reaction to 2e. Likewise 4e was a reaction to 3e. 5e...is a reaction to 4e, but looked much further back than other editions, I think. 3e and 4e were all about taking the game where it hadn't been before. 5e is, for both good and ill, about boldly going where D&D has gone before. Also, 3e was very focused on being a rules-as-physics simulator. 4e was very focused being a tightly balanced, encounter based game. 5e offers both in somewhat diluted forms, but isn't about being either of those. 5e is very much a throwback, because it's not really designed to be [i]about[/i] anything, except what the group wants to put into it. It's like, there undoubtedly broken combinations to be found via combining multiclassing and feats. But, both are completely optional, and explicitly called out as so, so it's very much caveat emptor. Inspiration is one of those ideally placed mechanics. There are undoubtedly groups that say, "Inspiration? Forget that!", and they can do that because while it has a mechanical expression, it is not mechanically necessary. Other groups just use it as a benny, a use that as old as the RPG hills -- e.g., "That was hilarious! Here, have some free advantage to distribute as you like!" I think the vast majority of people are using it like this, which is why you aren't hearing much discussion. Finally there's the opposite side of the spectrum from the first group: these are the folks that take those Bonds, Flaws, and Traits seriously! The DMs in these groups are very careful to distribute Inspiration when dramatically, thematically, and characteristically appropriate. The players, I imagine, are diligent in describing the effect of the inspiration in the game fiction. But I think this is a very small subset of the D&D population. If there's one thing that I find especially distinctive about 5e, it's this. So much of the game just [i]feels[/i] like, "Push this throttle as far as you are comfortable, and then leave it there." I'm not quite sure what you mean by story progression. As far as non-combat, again this is something you can throttle up or down. My group likes to wing it, with me using a lot of random rolls, because we're used to B/X, so we don't really use the social interaction rules in the DMG. But if someone really likes having mechanics for that, they are there. There are the downtime rules that give PCs things to do between adventures. And of course as you know the Bonds, Traits, Flaws, create character hooks that encourage players to be proactive in the world, rather than reactive to whatever the DM is running that day. I may not be the best person to ask, since I roll my monsters' damage, rather than using the average. As someone who likes fast combat, the math feels good to me (I don't have quite the time or inclination to do a more thorough, objective analysis). More than a few times, on first glance, I would think that a monster had a few too many hit points, but ultimately once battle was joined I found that the players hit often enough and did enough damage that it didn't get too grindy. Actually, running Lost Mines of Phandelver, I had an interesting experience- [sblock=Spoilers]In the first part of the adventure, the characters, at 1st level fight a bugbear and its pet wolf. Bugbears have 27 hp, compared to goblins' 7 hp and wolves' 11 hp. The first time the characters fought the bugbear and wolf, man I was worried they wouldn't be able to pull it out. But they just barely did. After leveling up, they spend part 2 in the Redbrand Hideout, which has a room with [b]three[/b] bugbears. Remembering the earlier fight, I thought this was going to be too much for the characters. To my surprise, the three bugbears were pretty quickly and pretty easily dealt with.[/sblock] I think people might get an impression after playing a session or 2 at 1st or 2nd level that the game is very lethal. But as a matter of fact, the curve from 1st to 3rd level is really steep, and PCs become able to shake off the vagaries of chance. A fighter, for example, has 32 hp at level 3, even with no Con bonus. Most monsters of equivalent CR or lower can't drop him with one hit, even on a crit, let alone kill him outright. I can't speak very well to nova-ing. It's never really been in my group's repertoire. It seems like the viability of cantrips actually takes some of the edge off; the casters in my group tend to use their cantrips as probing jabs. If they can take out the foe that way, fine, if not, then they comeback with a big spell knock-out punch. Every class seems to have some resource they can replenish with a short rest, so that takes some pressure off, too. But I can't speak for groups for which nova'ing and 15-minute work days was a real problem. It [I]is[/I] balanced for the adventuring day, though. So if a DM only does 1 encounter an adventuring day, there's no incentive for casters not to nova beyond anything that fighters and thieves can do. But IMXP, it's jab, jab, BAM! Haven't played any high-level yet. FWIW, I had the same reaction to the change in Indomitable. That said...you may be aware that 5e has a somewhat unusual CR spread. There are a [i]lot[/i] of monsters in the low end, and very few on the high end. And the reason is, due to bounded accuracy, the lower level monsters have more viability. But what this also means is that really, most monsters that require saves require something in the DC 11-13 range -- they're just as effected by Bounded Accuracy as the characters. Heck, the infamous Ghouls' paralysis is a DC 10 Saving Throw. Throw in such effects as Bless or Bardic Inspiration, and PCs seem to make a lot of Saves. True, the Adult Red Dragon requires some scary saves. But at that point, between Ability Score Improvements, Feats, buff spells, magic items, and various class features, I don't think it's going to be especially a big problem. And if it is, it's extremely easy to adjust. [/QUOTE]
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