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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7665528" data-attributes="member: 48965">I don't think it really matters either way since my point was that you stating martial powers ruined the game for me was false...*Sigh* are you really interested in knowing why or are we just going to keep going until the point where the abstraction doesn't line up and you can say gotcha!!  If so let me know now and we can end this conversation...I don't disagree that in 4e every maneuver would need different (in a specific sense) training just like maneuvers in 5e... but it's like learning a martial art or fencing... the maneuvers you learn are part of a larger umbrella. There are 2 parts we are discussing here that you seem to be confusing... the training to perform the maneuver and the conditioning (stamina) to perform the maneuver.  While both are necessary to pull off the maneuvers/powers... 4e then silos off the stamina to perform each specific maneuvers into a discrete piece that can only be used every 5 mins or 8 hours after resting...but just that particular piece. Yes this causes dissonance for me because your conditioning from the art you practice should be applicable to all of those maneuvers, in the same way that if a runner can run 10 miles total, straight in a day... he doesn't run 2 miles then get tired and have to rest 5 mins before running 2 miles again... but can still run 10 miles straight without resting... just not 2 miles before a 5 min rest... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> The 4e martial powers and the hoops necessary to justify how they are designed and function in the game... everything from stamina to genre enforcement which I'm sure you as a 4e fan are familiar with are IMO a bunch of excuses to justify a mechanic that causes dissonance for many (never said all or @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a> specifically) people... and most are unsatisfactory because they either force a playstyle or don't adequately explain all the powers present in the game... Please stop doing that if we are discussing... don't ask me a question and then tell me what the "obvious" answer is... I didn't get deeper into details above but I have clarified the same difference I stated earlier.  If anything it seems like you are diving deeper and deeper into the mechanics to try and rationalize some way in which they are the same mechanically or in the realm of verisimilitude when... at least for me... they are not.  I have explained why twice now and yet I'm sure you will now focus on some other minor detail to explain why it's inconsistent for me to like one and not the other...and I'll explain my reasoning again... and so on.  Perhaps for you but I gave my reason above... try reading it again and accepting it as opposed to answering the question you posed to me...Right... but it shows that they are separate training/disciplines/whatever... since learning one does not bestow the ability or stamina necessary for the other one... do you believe that the training and stamina to be a boxer gives you the same training or stamina necessary to be a long distance runner?  If not why would training your body to endure a hit better, also allow you to parry more times??  That's what you're claiming should enhance verisimilitude with 5e... not seeing it. I never said 4e martial powers and 5e maneuvers were the same... I was commenting on the fact that @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=42582" target="_blank">pemerton</a> claimed they were both tied to stamina since they used the same recharge mechanism... nice try though.  In fact my whole point has been that they are different and that is why it is not inconsistent to like one but not the other... I mean which one is it, if they are different then there is no inconsistency... As to your statements about 4e martial powers... and martial characters also had powers that were just same + more damage which would use the same training and reserves of stamina...the fact that these exist makes your point about the healing power irrelevant.  Yeah but no one else can use the same encounter power more than once... remember were talking verisimilitude here, right?  You're giving me a game reason above... give me an in-fiction reason why one class can allow the use of the same encounter power more than once but another class cannot?</blockquote>

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