NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7665607" data-attributes="member: 996">I haven't heard anyone say they reject a version of D&D for using a d20.  If someone were to, yes, it would be glaringly inconsistent of them. I'm not dismissing anything.  It's just that every 'difference' you've come up with turns out to be present in both cases.   Have done, every one of them:[sblock] Every 'difference' you dream up turns out to be present in both cases in one form or another.[/sblock]In contrast, Remathilis resolves one inconsistency, by bringing it into a larger context. Of course, that's only half the resolution, the other being that fighters don't actually cast spells in both cases, only in the case of the EK.  :shrug: The aspects of the mechanics in question (limited use representing 'stamina' in the 5e battlemaster and 4e Weaponmaster abilities in question (individual encounter exploits vs maneuvers, actions surge & second wind, yet that stamina being somehow silo'd) are, indeed, very similar, both in general mechanics and how those mechanics relate to the fiction.  As has been demonstrated, above.While it's an entirely different case (comparing things within an edition, instead of accross eds), 4e powers from different classes are, of course, quite different from eachother.  No class actually shared the same power with another (unlike all other editions, where two or more casters may have some the exact same spells in their lists).  Some have /very/ similar effects to the point that it might have been more efficient to list powers by Source rather than Class, but different sources have /very/ different powers. Look at 'fighters cast spells.'  It's factually false, because spells, in 4e, are arcane powers, and fighters get none.  But, what it's /trying/ to say is that presenting completely different abilities in the same format makes them the same.  That's what you just claimed, and it is also factually false.  We'll compare exploits and spells to illustrate that falsehood:[sblock]Open up your 4e PH1, and look through the at-will, encounter, and daily attack powers of all 4 martial classes:You will find that:None of those powers use implements, virtually all use weapons.None of them are Area attacks, most are melee or ranged.None of them do typed damage.Those that are close attacks target 'enemies you can see.'All use either STR or DEX.Some dailies are 'reliable.'No exploit creates a zone.Now, repeat the process with actual spells from the two Arcane classes presented:You will find that:Virtually all use implementsVery few are Melee range, none Melee Weapon*, and many are Area attacksMany do typed damageClose attacks target 'all creatures' or 'enemies' in the area, rather than only enemies 'you can see.'All use either INT, CHA, or CON.Some create zones.None are 'reliable.'Even were you to strip the powers of their names, class, level, fluff text and source keywords, it would be readily apparent which are spells and which are exploits.*[sblock]If you look at Paragon Path powers, as well, you /will/ find a power or two that uses the weapon keyword, in the Wizard of the Spiral Tower, a paragon fighter/magic-user stand in that uses weapons.  Of course, they're also not class attack powers.[/sblock][/sblock]</blockquote>

Verification