D&D General 70% Of Games End At Lvl 7?

Zardnaar

Legend
Few years back WotC released that number from Beyond. 10% make it to 10, 1% epic tier.

Older editions not sure but TSR alumni are on record saying higher level stuff didn't sell well. There was a big drop off in BE and CMI apparently for example.

This raises interesting questions about paragon paths and epic levels in 4E and prestige classes in 3.X which generally required 5 levels just to qualify. I suspect a lot of 3.X is broken involved a lot of theory craft hence Pathfinder buying another decade for it.

My current campaign is 10 plan was for 12 but a player today suggested calling it and starting again. AFAIK between two gamestores and local University club I'm running the highest level game locally outside of unknown home games. Level 10 has some big power ups in 5.5.

DM quits/can't be bothered is main reason imho. I think the WotC numbers were probably about right overall but they were a while ago. I know a lot of ENworld isn't playing or barely plays.

Do you think the 70% was accurate outside Beyond or if the number changed in last 6 or 7 year?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don’t have any actual data, but my personal experience was that the longest* D&D campaign I’ve ever participated in was a 4e game. We played from 1st level to 11th, and the only reason we stopped was because half the players moved away, and VTTs and video call services were both still in their infancy at the time. But everyone was enjoying the game as much as we had in the beginning if not more, and we would all gladly have kept playing if we could have. I’ve never had a 3e or 5e campaign go that long before losing steam.

I think one of the major factors was that most D&D editions have the characters’ capabilities grow so much over the course of their career that what the game is fundamentally about has to change drastically by around mid-level. But 4e avoided that by taking the combat math of the best parts of 3e, and extending that math across 30 levels. 4e doesn’t really have a level after which the characters have access to such world-altering powers that the scope and scale of the narrative have to change. The player and enemy combat numbers kept pace with each other across the whole 30-level spread, and the kinds of game-warping magical effects that dramatically change the nature of challenges were gated behind expensive rituals instead of just limited on a per-day basis.

*in terms of delta between party level when the campaign started and party level when the campaign ended
 

I don’t have any actual data, but my personal experience was that the longest* D&D campaign I’ve ever participated in was a 4e game. We played from 1st level to 11th, and the only reason we stopped was because half the players moved away, and VTTs and video call services were both still in their infancy at the time. But everyone was enjoying the game as much as we had in the beginning if not more, and we would all gladly have kept playing if we could have. I’ve never had a 3e or 5e campaign go that long before losing steam.

I think one of the major factors was that most D&D editions have the characters’ capabilities grow so much over the course of their career that what the game is fundamentally about has to change drastically by around mid-level. But 4e avoided that by taking the combat math of the best parts of 3e, and extending that math across 30 levels. 4e doesn’t really have a level after which the characters have access to such world-altering powers that the scope and scale of the narrative have to change. The player and enemy combat numbers kept pace with each other across the whole 30-level spread, and the kinds of game-warping magical effects that dramatically change the nature of challenges were gated behind expensive rituals instead of just limited on a per-day basis.

*in terms of delta between party level when the campaign started and party level when the campaign ended

10,211,12 is usually where we get to. It's capstone stuff for me.
 

I don’t have any actual data, but my personal experience was that the longest* D&D campaign I’ve ever participated in was a 4e game. We played from 1st level to 11th, and the only reason we stopped was because half the players moved away, and VTTs and video call services were both still in their infancy at the time. But everyone was enjoying the game as much as we had in the beginning if not more, and we would all gladly have kept playing if we could have. I’ve never had a 3e or 5e campaign go that long before losing steam.

I think one of the major factors was that most D&D editions have the characters’ capabilities grow so much over the course of their career that what the game is fundamentally about has to change drastically by around mid-level. But 4e avoided that by taking the combat math of the best parts of 3e, and extending that math across 30 levels. 4e doesn’t really have a level after which the characters have access to such world-altering powers that the scope and scale of the narrative have to change. The player and enemy combat numbers kept pace with each other across the whole 30-level spread, and the kinds of game-warping magical effects that dramatically change the nature of challenges were gated behind expensive rituals instead of just limited on a per-day basis.

*in terms of delta between party level when the campaign started and party level when the campaign ended
I'd say there are probably five...let's call them "strains" of play, which loosely fit across an arc.

You have what I would call "Novice Levels" and what its fans generally call "the best part", or at the very least, "low level". Maybe a fairer term would be "Greenhorn"--people who really have almost no experience at all. Things where concerns are deeply immediate and concrete: food, water, shelter. You're contending with threats that are either ordinary, or an ordinary thing with a small tweak, e.g. wild dogs (or some monster of about the same threat level), cutpurses (or goblins or kobolds or...etc.); or threats that are classified as basic/standard/introductory for D&D, like weaker varieties of slimes or particularly fragile undead etc. One might call this the "Gritty Survival" strain. Very polarizing; folks who like it usually love it and don't really have nearly as much affection for any other strain, often trying to add in as many limitations and things as they can to try to resist pulling away from this phase, and almost always removing a number of options or features (usuallly spells) which weaken or obviate it.

Then you have what I would call "first level" and "the prelude to the best part", but which might be more neutrally called the "Budding Adventurer" strain. Where the previous is almost painstakingly down-to-earth, this is ever so slightly less so. It's a world unafraid to be openly magical, even if magic isn't commonly practiced, and where threats likewise start to become openly fantastical in return. Here you see many basic types of undead, many many classic monsters (rust monster, anyone?), and a lot of the "staple" spells like fireball and haste. 3e topped out here in terms of balancing its mechanics, or perhaps just a hair beyond, but not much. Certain kinds of old-school D&D also intentionally topped out here...but were later extended (e.g. B/X as opposed to BECMI).

Third, you have what (again) I would call "the best part", but more neutrally would be called the "High Adventure" strain. Power has escalated, but the characters are far from being the biggest or the baddest thing around, even in their local context. 4e would've called this high Heroic to early Paragon; 5e calls it roughly level 9-14, etc. Riffing off what Zardnaar said, for a significant chunk of fans (particularly those who adored the idea of 3e but didn't care for how gonzo it often got), this is where the game taps out; once you "beat" this part, it's time to start over. Threats in this space can kind of run the gamut--it's still plausible to run into the most powerful of "mundane" threats, while just barely becoming plausible to fight the lowest echelon of world-shaking ones. The focus is shifting from small to large, from local to global, from petty to grand, it's right in the middle and thus can touch just about any of it with the right explanation.

Fourth, I dunno if I'd even have a name for this one myself but I think a neutral term would be "Ascension". Again, using 4e terms, high Paragon to (very) early Epic, where your characters have transcended the limits of whatever context they originally came from and have graduated to threats almost unimaginable in their pre-adventure lives. Their story has flowered and grown, they've done mighty deeds and achieved lasting effect (for good or for ill). The power, and the perspective, has shifted decidedly toward ultimate dangers, but you haven't entirely left your old life and context behind yet. Your powers may be great, but you don't have wide-spanning victory yet. (Note that this doesn't have to go balls-to-the-wall for stakes; it's quite possible to start really really local and only graduate up to the affairs of continents at this point, rather than the more stereotypical plane-hopping adventures at this stage of play.)

Finally, again I don't really have a personal name for this one but there's a pretty obvious ready-to-hand one: "Apotheosis". When you've reached this strain of play, you are either a mover-and-shaker of the whole world/plane/universe, or you're a trusted servant/advisor or well-paid mercenary for such a power. This is where Wizards get to alter reality and Clerics can nearly guarantee divine intervention etc. The gloves come off and the power level spikes real damn high.

The problem is, 5e distributes these things...rather unevenly, and doesn't really provide any assistance for GMs to spool out one or mitigate the change to another.

Levels 1-3 are very much Greenhorn territory. And levels 4(ish)-9 are Budding Adventurer (hence why the books properly speaking recommend that most groups start at level 3...but almost no one ever does...even though people then complain about the problems of starting at level 1...not that I'm bitter about this or anything...).

But level 17 sharply pushes everything into Apotheosis territory because of one simple issue: wish. That spell defines the top end power level of D&D, and guarantees that characters at that level are extraordinarily powerful simply because tradition demands it.

So...now that means between level 10 and 16, we have to squeeze all of both High Adventure and Ascension. It's not so bad that Greenhorn is short--we expect characters to grow out of that quickly. But with Budding Adventurer spread out so long, while High Adventure basically has to get force-marched through at an incredibly rapid pace, there's a real feeling that power levels escalate exponentially. Indeed, that they do so very suddenly without really clear reasons why (to the player). They just know that things don't feel quite right.

This is just another reason why D&D should in fact develop comprehensive Novice Level rules, which include spooling out proper levels almost indefinitely (not truly indefinitely, but pretty far). If it's going to offer, or at least appear to offer, extensive support across that broad a range, it needs to have ways for GMs to control how quickly things shift up or down the power curve. Its presence can't be meaningfully denied. You'll just piss off too many fans if you try to declare that only one or two strains are valid and everything else is verboten. But we gotta find a way to help players play at the scope and power level that makes them happy. Trying to squeeze everyone onto a single 20-level progression track where progress occurs at a very very roughly constant rate isn't working.
 

There's a bunch of reasons why many campaigns don't get much past 7th:

--- the campaign simply fails in its very early stages. This can be due to player-DM incompatibility, poor DMing, poor play, lack of commitment, real life interference, or whatever; but I'd posit it's the by-far most common reason for campaigns not reaching high level (or any level, for all that)
--- the players, the DM, or both just get bored by some key aspect of the campaign - be it the setting, the story arc, the characters, or whatever; something just isn't working, so they decide to scrap it and reboot
--- dissatisfaction with higher-level play: the PCs become too powerful relative to the world around them, and either the players don't like this type of play or the DM can't keep up with it or both. (this is why we had E6 in the 3e era)
--- the system itself gets too wobbly. More an issue with 0e and 1e, and usually at more like 9th-ish level rather than 7th, but at a certain point the system just can't take the strain without a crapton of DM finagling. WotC have tried their best to extend this range upwards, with varying results and widely varying opinions about those results.

Given all that, I'm surprised as many as 30% of campaigns get beyond 7th.
 

I'm stunned by that statistic - I'd assumed it would be more ending at a lower level. Though maybe it doesn't include those campaigns that never get past level 1?

My experience has been that in 37 years of play (albeit with three gaps of a year or more in there), and across multiple editions, I've had a total of five campaigns make it to 10th level or above. I probably have a few more than made it to 7th, but didn't keep track. (Though, as it happens, I do know that I three of my 5e campaigns made it past that point; one of which made it to 10th.)
 


Coincidentally, I’m just a few weeks from wrapping up a campaign, and the characters are 6th level. It has nothing to do with the rules, and more that we’ve been playing for almost exactly a year, and I’m starting to burn out as a DM, and need a break.

Of course, I levelled them slower than what might be the average, but that’s the way we like it. But I’d be fine keeping them going, if I had the oomph for it.

The last game we played before this one, the DM got us to 8th. But again, that game died due to DM fatigue.
 

In my experience, a majority of game ends are due to the GM running out of ideas or exhausting the campaign they started and not some mystical level issue. I think this is why the 1-20 adventure paths came out. But adventure paths have their own, well discussed issues and often end early for other reasons.

But many games were of the type "Create a level X character and we will run through Module YYY this weekend, or the next Z weekends." Everyone knew going in that it wasn't a campaign but just a module run.

But one of the downsides to higher level play is the sheer number of options players have to remember. For magic using types, you can easily have 50+ different options you can do each action after counting spells, meta magic, basic feats, skills, traits, racial abilities, etc. Many players resort to just doing 1 or 2 things over and over rather then fully exploring the character sheet for different things to do. Going back to a 1st level game may seem a relief.
 

IRL campaigns I have DMd:
Castle Dracula (Castlevania): 3 to 13
Against the Idol of the Sun: 13 to 20+2 boons
Westvault Explorations (episodic): 1 to about 6, 1/2 the party had a job change & relocated
Baldur's Gate 2: 1 to 17, level 18 coming up. May end, may go ToB, may go Watcher's Keep.

IRL campaigns I have played in:
Sulrix 1: 4 to about 6, players dropped
Sulrix 2 (Prison Escape, begin revolution): 3 or 4 to 10, DM schedule changed
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top